Couple of Newbie Hands

[charlie_t_jr]

Hey All,

This is my first post, and I have a couple of hands for you to look at. Nothing special about the hands, just wanted to know if my logic is where it needs to be at. I've played kitchen table poker since my teens, but just now learning hold'em, read a book or two, played at the play money tables for a while, and week and half ago started real money play at party and paradise, at micro limits...and so far so good.

1st Hand

I'm 2 seats past Big Blind, 4th after button...I think Lee Jones has 1st 4 seats EP...Ken Warren calls 1st 3 or 4 EP...so I'm in EP or early MP. I'm dealt 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif, player to my right folds, I call. Is this a loose call here? Keeping in mind most of these tables play loose. 2 more MP callers, SB calls and BB checks. Flop comes: 10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif. SB checks, BB bets, I call. Once again, am I playing with proper odds to the flush draw and only 4 other players, and since its not the nut flush, am I playing too loose? 1 MP fold, the other calls, SB folds. Turn 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, everybody checks. If someone had bet, do I call, should I have bet, for a semi-bluff? River: Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Once again everyone checks, BB wins pair of 10's.

2nd Hand

I'm in LP on the button(hope I have these terms right!) Dealt: A /images/graemlins/club.gif, Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. 2 MP callers,I call,SB calls, BB checks. Flop: 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, A /images/graemlins/spade.gif, A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Checked to me, I bet, everyone but BB is in. Turn: Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Checked to me, I check. I decide to slow play and go for hopefully a check raise on river, with my A's full. Should I just bet the Turn? River:7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB checks MP bets, another caller, and I reraise, everybody calls. SB blind had two pair A's & 8's, the two MP both had two pair A's & 7's and A's & Q's. I win A's full of Q's. Thoughts & suggestion?

Thanks,
Charlie

[pufferfish]

Welcome!

[ QUOTE ]

1st Hand

I'm 2 seats past Big Blind, 4th after button...I think Lee Jones has 1st 4 seats EP...Ken Warren calls 1st 3 or 4 EP...so I'm in EP or early MP. I'm dealt 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif, player to my right folds, I call. Is this a loose call here? Keeping in mind most of these tables play loose. 2 more MP callers, SB calls and BB checks. Flop comes: 10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif. SB checks, BB bets, I call. Once again, am I playing with proper odds to the flush draw and only 4 other players, and since its not the nut flush, am I playing too loose? 1 MP fold, the other calls, SB folds. Turn 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, everybody checks. If someone had bet, do I call, should I have bet, for a semi-bluff? River: Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Once again everyone checks, BB wins pair of 10's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pre-flop: If pre-flop raises are rare then I don’t see a problem with it.

Flop: I’d call as well. I wouldn’t worry about it not being the nuts unless a fourth club came.

Turn: You just picked up a straight draw as well. I might bet here.

Take note of how BB bet the flop but checked the turn and river. You’ll be able to use that in the future.


[ QUOTE ]

2nd Hand

I'm in LP on the button(hope I have these terms right!) Dealt: A /images/graemlins/club.gif, Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. 2 MP callers,I call,SB calls, BB checks. Flop: 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, A /images/graemlins/spade.gif, A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Checked to me, I bet, everyone but BB is in. Turn: Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Checked to me, I check. I decide to slow play and go for hopefully a check raise on river, with my A's full. Should I just bet the Turn? River:7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB checks MP bets, another caller, and I reraise, everybody calls. SB blind had two pair A's & 8's, the two MP both had two pair A's & 7's and A's & Q's. I win A's full of Q's. Thoughts & suggestion?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pre-flop: I would raise with what is probably the best hand. Although I have to admit that in this hand the lack of a pre-flop raise probably helped you.

Flop: Good bet.

Turn: Bet. You might have gotten check-raised by the Queen, which you could call and watch him bet out on the river.

River: Good raise.

You might want to post on the Small Stakes forum in the future.

TC,
pf

[lunchmeat]

Welcome to 2+2 Charlie. Here are some comments... follow my advice at your own risk.

Hand 1) To make this call pre-flop the game must be loose, (and low-limit usually are as you point out) but it's probably even more important that the game is passive, which low limit games sometimes aren't. So make sure both criterion are met. On the flop the odds of you making your flush are slightly better than 2:1 (two to one), so this is definitely a good call. Betting the turn would be a good idea if you think there's any chance both your opponents will fold... and there's definitely no guarantee of that, so whether to bet or check here depends on your opponents. With no information other than the limit, I agree with the check here, although I know other 2+2ers would advise a bet.

Hand 2) Just in case you're not sure on the definition, the "button" is one position to the right of the small blind. Pre-flop you should raise on the button with AQ with 2 callers in front of you because A) your hand is almost certainly better than theirs B)you want to narrow the number of opponents seeing the flop, and C) with a pre-flop raise you will likely be checked to you on the flop, giving you a chance to either bluff or take a free look at 4th street. Good bet on the flop, but you probably should have bet the turn too. The main flaw of low-limit players is that they call too much, so take advantage of that by betting your big hands (or sometimes check/raising if you are in early position). Good raise on the river.

Hope that helps.

[onegymrat]

Hi Charlie,
This is a good post. As you play more hours, these answers should come to you more clearly. Good luck.

Hand 1: This is a very loose call. Though the table at these limits are loose as you say, that doesn't mean you have to be. The problem with 76s: what are you hoping for? It is a very weak hand. A bad case scenario is that you hit your flush, only to be beaten by a higher flush, which will happen very often in low limit games. The only plausible good outcome from 76s is that you miraculously flop a boat or a nut straight. Otherwise, you're going to burn a lot of chips. Play only on the button with a passive table. That being said, your play I feel was fine. I would have bet the turn though, being that your outs increased. And yes, call the turn if someone else had bet.

Hand 2: If you're on the button with AQ preflop, it's good to raise because you're the last to act and will have good control of the betting. With no aggression before you, you most likely have the best hand. You need to bet the turn. Checking the turn just lost you four big bets. They are going to call you anyway. You can't check raise the river because you are last to act. If you were hoping to induce a bet on the river, and then raise, you could lose a few customers. You would have definitely made more by betting the turn. Do you see how that is? I rarely slowplay because of the fact that money lost by not betting is just that, money lost!

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
1st Hand

I'm 2 seats past Big Blind, 4th after button...I think Lee Jones has 1st 4 seats EP...Ken Warren calls 1st 3 or 4 EP...so I'm in EP or early MP. I'm dealt 7 6 , player to my right folds, I call. Is this a loose call here? Keeping in mind most of these tables play loose. 2 more MP callers, SB calls and BB checks. Flop comes: 10 J 5 . SB checks, BB bets, I call. Once again, am I playing with proper odds to the flush draw and only 4 other players, and since its not the nut flush, am I playing too loose? 1 MP fold, the other calls, SB folds. Turn 8 , everybody checks. If someone had bet, do I call, should I have bet, for a semi-bluff? River: Q . Once again everyone checks, BB wins pair of 10's.


[/ QUOTE ]

You are UTG+1 (Under the Gun + one) and yes, the game is soft, however, the open-limp is loose. I do raise with this hand to mix it up now and then, however.

Flop: I'd raise my flush draw and runner-runner str8.

Turn: If you raised the flush draw, this would be an easy bet with your open ender and flush draw.

River: check is good, you're unimproved.

[ QUOTE ]
2nd Hand

I'm in LP on the button(hope I have these terms right!) Dealt: A , Q . 2 MP callers,I call,SB calls, BB checks. Flop: 8 , A , A
Checked to me, I bet, everyone but BB is in. Turn: Q . Checked to me, I check. I decide to slow play and go for hopefully a check raise on river, with my A's full. Should I just bet the Turn? River:7 . SB checks MP bets, another caller, and I reraise, everybody calls. SB blind had two pair A's & 8's, the two MP both had two pair A's & 7's and A's & Q's. I win A's full of Q's. Thoughts & suggestion?


[/ QUOTE ]

I'd raise the AQ on the button after 2 limpers and I'd bet every street after that. Since you are last to act you will not have the chance to check-raise, so you'll be missing bets by checking behind, worse hands will call.

Take care and welcome to the forum,
Larry Joe

[charlie_t_jr]

Hey Guys, thanks for all the terrific suggustions...man there's a goldmine of info on these boards...thanks again!

[Homer]

<font color="blue">1st Hand</font>

I'm 2 seats past Big Blind, 4th after button...I think Lee Jones has 1st 4 seats EP...Ken Warren calls 1st 3 or 4 EP...so I'm in EP or early MP.

In a 10-handed game, the first three seats after the blinds are EP, the next three are MP, and the last two are LP (CO and button).

I'm dealt 76 suited, player to my right folds, I call. Is this a loose call here? Keeping in mind most of these tables play loose

Yes, it is too loose in most games. You should only limp here is the table is very loose AND super-duper passive, which isn't the case too often.

Once again, am I playing with proper odds to the flush draw and only 4 other players, and since its not the nut flush, am I playing too loose?

No, calling here is good. In general, do not abandon a flush draw in a multiway pot before the river unless the board pairs and there's a ton of action. Also, calling here is better than raising because you don't want to knock out the players behind you, since you'd like them to hang around and pay you off when your flush gets there. In some situations you should raise with your flush draw. Two of these situations are:

- There is a bet and a bunch of callers to you in late position. Your raise would be for value and to possibly acquire a free turn card.

- You have overcards to the board. Raising can "clean up" your overcard outs, making it more likely that if they show up on the board they will help you to win the pot.

If someone had bet, do I call, should I have bet, for a semi-bluff?

You must call if someone bets. You have a straight draw and a flush draw, which is 15 outs out of 46 unseen cards. So, you're about 2:1 against improving on the river, and you'd be getting pot odds of 5:1 on the call if someone bet. Since your pot odds would be better than your odds against improving, a call is in order. When BB checks, you should bet if you think doing so has some chance to take down the pot. Heads-up I would almost always bet when checked to, but against two opponents I would be less likely to do so.


<font color="blue">2nd Hand</font>

2 MP callers,I call,SB calls, BB checks.

You should always raise with AQo on the button after two limpers.

Checked to me, I check. I decide to slow play and go for hopefully a check raise on river, with my A's full. Should I just bet the Turn?

Yes, absolutely. You will be called by anyone with a Q, anyone with a four-flush, and (probably) anyone with an 8. Additionally, you will be checkraised if someone holds the case Ace, in which case you will be able to three-bet.

Checking in situations like these is going to cost you a lot of money in the long run.

-- Homer

p.s. - If you find anything in this post confusing, feel free to ask. I only mention this since you posted in the Beginner's Forum.

[Homer]

I do raise with this hand to mix it up now and then, however. (referring to 76s)

I think this is bad advice. First of all, a newbie is probably playing at low-limits, in which case there is no need to mix it up because your opponents aren't paying attention, and will give you unlimited action even if you are a total rock. Secondly, if you are going to mix it up it shouldn't be with 76s from early position for the following reasons:

- This play will cost you a lot of EV, and you probably won't be able to make it up in later hands.

- You are out of position, making it unlikely that you will be able to showdown cheaply. Most of the time you'll probably end up folding this hand before the river and no one will know you were mixing it up.

I think it is much more preferable to mix it up from late position with hands with which doing so is closer to neutral EV. For example, 4 players limp to you on the button with J9s. Go ahead and raise here. Doing so doesn't cost you much EV, and there's a decent chance you'll be able to show the hand down because you're in good position.

And again, it may not even be necessary to mix it up at all. I don't think I've ever played in a game in which opponents were paying enough attention that I felt like I had to mix things up. If I were in a game like this, I'd get out.

-- Homer

[Louie Landale]

[1] If you don't like a non-paired flush draw ON the flop there is no reason to play suited hands before the flop. Anyway, 87s against 4 opponents for no raise is marginally profitable. To play these hands early you need to be at a table featuring more calls and few raises.

You flopped a good hand. Raising only makes sense (when the bettor is on your immediate right) if you think you can steal if from him on the turn. That's unlikely in the micro-limits so calling is a no brainer. If there was a bet and a couple calls, your hand is marginally worth a raise.

On the turn ... Well, you improved AND the bettor appears not to have a pair of Jacks. You have 3 outs to bad straight (You catch a 9), and another 12 outs to a plenty good straight or flush; making you a 3:1 dog to a very likely winner. The pot surely has more than 3bb in it; so do not fold.

If you are EVER going to semi-bluff on the turn this is the time. I would, and bet the river with your big draw.

Be tempted to steal the river when the over-card comes and everyone checks the turn. You need to steal SOME of the time even at the micro-limits.

[2] Raise PF. The micro-limits feature players gleefully drawing slim, so once you get 3 calls on the flop I'd be REAL tempted to bet the turn, just out of greed. If I got one flop call then maybe I'd slow-play.

- Louie

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: Bet. You might have gotten check-raised by the Queen, which you could call and watch him bet out on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you want to call instead of 3-betting here? Lots of hands will call a bet here but not on the river.

[pufferfish]

Honest answer. I don’t know what I was thinking at the time.

If the turn check-raise comes from MP2 and you (Button) 3-bets you are putting SB and MP1 in the position of calling 2 cold. They may both fold. MP2 will then probably check-call the river.

If you simply call the turn check-raise, you may get one overcall (from SB) and then a river bet from MP2 that you can raise.

That would gain you one BB, I think.

But, maybe I’m all wet.

TC,
pf

[Ilovephysics]

I'm new too, so it's nice to see a few hands and commentary on how 'people' would play them.. I'm not an expert, so I don't think any of my advice should be treated as advice, just more as my own 'thoughts'... attack them as you see fit.

1st Hand:
I'm always looking for a reason not to play a hand, and I think that I probably wouldn't have even played this hand in this position. I'd also probably get scared off if anyone bet behind me on the flop... though calling was 'correct' once you got that flop... I suppose you can't always assume someone else is on the nut flush, etc., either, especially with how the hand was played. I think checking on the turn was smart, since I don't know if a bet is going to help... can't raise a river if you got squat and if someone is just gonna call.

Hand 2:
Yeah, I'd raise preflop to limit the field, get an extra bet or two from the SB or BB, or maybe to have the SB or BB re-raise to limit the field even more... Also, you can still gain a lot of info with a raise here, and stupid people will call with their 83o anyway, so at least make them pay.

Once the flop comes, betting seemed like an easy move. You have to figure you are the best hand... I'd still guess most bad playing people may still guess you are on a weak-kicker A, but that's hard to say. They may just think you are bluffing in LP that you have a A... Actually, after talking to a lot of bad players, most often 'jokingly' assume that a LP raiser is just raising because they are in LP, not necessarily because they have a good hand (the whole 'position raise' lingo from movies like rounders). So they may not even buy the fact that you even have an A (which is obvious later in the hand).

When the Q hits, with that many players, I still think you have to consider betting... I doubt anyone is going to believe that you have a AQ boat... and most will still pay just to play sheriff... a bet here would re-inforce the issue that you have trip As, but I think these players really don't care... someone may have also stumbled onto a heart flush draw, which is great for you since they are going to call almost universally. However, maybe I'm wrong on this. Your check might have been a correct play as well because it told them that maybe you were just bluffing (lots of bad players fear bluffing) earlier at the flop trying to get them to drop before the money got higher... but "they were too smart for you to have you force them out!"

Anyway, I still think the Q stays regardless if you bet the turn... as would anyone on a now possible flush draw (with maybe an 8h and Kh or whatever). The fact that they all called the re-raise on the river basically says to me that pretty much all but the player with the 7s would have called a bet on the turn... and they all still never bought the fact that you had an A...

I'm still wondering what the other cards of the 7 and 8 player were, in addition to the player with the Q... I can't see why anyone with a 7 or QX would have hung around even past the flop. But then again, I suppose that's what makes it a great game for you to be playing in.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is bad advice. First of all, a newbie is probably playing at low-limits, in which case there is no need to mix it up because your opponents aren't paying attention, and will give you unlimited action even if you are a total rock.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I agree it's bad advice in this forum. Yet, I've done it, and I couldn't hide that fact.

[ QUOTE ]
you probably won't be able to make it up in later hands.


[/ QUOTE ]

I've done it and made it up double.


[ QUOTE ]
And again, it may not even be necessary to mix it up at all. I don't think I've ever played in a game in which opponents were paying enough attention that I felt like I had to mix things up. If I were in a game like this, I'd get out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've can't say I've done it often (maybe 3 times) showdown twice. Funny, I've only done it playing live, and it was prefect situations. Whereas I was pounding a table and open raised in EP w/AK and got no action, open-raised in EP again, got no action. Next hand 76s, mix it up time. I will do it again if I'm in the same situation.

[Homer]

Whatever works for you. I'm just saying there a certainly better situations in which to mix up your play.

-- Homer

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Whatever works for you. I'm just saying there a certainly better situations in which to mix up your play.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, there is no such thing as 'just saying'. I just have to say that. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

You know, I was thinking about you J9s example on my drive home today from work (55 min drive your mind wanders) and I understand it. Thanks Homer.