Please help resolve this friendly dispute

[Jedster]

My friend who shall remain nameless played the hand which follows. We currently are disputing whether he played it correctly or incorrectly. So in my first post on 2+2, please help us resolve the dispute.

The game: It's a 10-20 w/half-kill game in a major city near Long Island recently impacted by a blackout.

Pre-flop:

All fold to cutoff who raises. Button folds. My buddy is in SB and sees A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif so he three-bets. The big blind just calls and the cutoff just calls. 9 small bets in the pot.

Flop (wing and a prayer):

T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/club.gif2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

My buddy checks, big blind bets, cutoff raises. 12 small bets in the pot. My buddy calls the raise. (What would you do here?)

Big blind three-bets, cutoff caps at four bets. (Eighteen small bets in the pot.) My buddy calls again. (What would you do here?)

Turn (I caught a miracle draw!):

3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

My buddy checks. Big blind checks. Cutoff bets. (11.5 big bets in the pot.) My buddy calls. (Anyone raise here?) Big blind check-raises. Cutoff calls. (15.5 big bets in the pot.)

River (Da-dum, ship it!):

J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

My buddy bets out with the nuts. Big blind calls in disgust. Cutoff folds, sending a 18.5 big bet pot to my buddy. (Anyone check-raise here?)

What hand do you put the big blind on? (Answer coming later.)

-Jed

[worm33]

When your buddy 3 bets and then checks the flop I think he has to be prepared to fold if it comes back to him 2 bets cold. He has overcards but I would put at least one of these guys on a10 so his q might be his only good outs. The runner runner flush/straight draw doesnt really come into play much here I dont think in a 3 way smallish/medium sized pot pre-flop. Why did he check the flop? If he bets the flop and is raised the hand plays a lot easier. take a card off on the turn, 3d nice...take another one off with a possible 15 outer...nice...check raise...nice...Thats the way I would have played it...I assume the bb had probably 88 or 10-10 to call 3 bets pre-flop from his bb...
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[JTG51]

I think he played it terribly. He shold have bet the flop, since he didn't he can probably fold safely to the bet and raise.

The bigger mistake was betting the river, he should have gone for a check raise. Given all the action to that point, it seems very unlikely the river is going to get checked around. His opponents can't possibly put your friend on a flush and with the likely bet coming from the BB, he'll often be able to trap both players for 2 bets.

[Mike Burchett]

Let's just say that your friend was toast on the flop, drawing to a runner-runner. It looks to me like he is up against either AT or a high pocket pair in the cutoff, but even he was behind.

BB had either TT or 88 for a good bad beat story ;-). And your friend threw away money that he earned by drawing by not check raising the river.

Bad play, good pot. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

After 3-betting the flop, your friend should have led out on the flop, and if raised, fold. The fact that he checked gave away his weakness. He should have folded after the bet/raise scenario. The odds to draw for a runner-runner (23-1) is not even close. He just got lucky.

[Diplomat]

Two mistakes -- calling 2 cold on the flop (should have bet, or even bet blind, a la Tommy A., or check/folded) and not check-raising the river.

-Diplomat

[DrSavage]

Flop: bet out. It's important because then the original bettor would've raised and cutoff likely would've just called so your call would close the action and not let them cap the flop. If you check, fold to a raise. No EV in chasing those.
Turn: same here, bet and call a raise.
River: don't check/raise. flush draw might be scary enough for them to check behind you. They both likely have 2pair /set and will not lay them down to your bet. The one who did lay down a hand is unlikely to be sane unless he was on a draw and i can't imagine what that draw could be that he would've played like that.

[Jedster]

Thank you all.

I particularly like the point that if you are going to play this hand, you have to bet the flop -- it's much less likely that you will pay 4 bets that way.

FWIW, the big bland had pocket rockets.

-Jed

[elysium]

hi jed
on the flop, it's better to bet out unless he wants to check-raise the turn depending on how the hand develops. and that's really the deciding factor here.

he should see that this holding has an opportunity to develop. he should also quickly see that this situation is favorable for check-raising in. so, he is probably being told by some of the other players that he did something wrong, but at the same time, these other players aren't being specific in their criticism. and they are probably arguing amongst themselves over it, each having a differing opinion that changes or that leaves the listener not sure.

this is because they are responding to a sensation, not a definative point of issue that is singled out as being the thing that is wrong about the way the hand was played. their sensation or disapproval is being aroused, but the source or the arousal is unclear. let's see if we can find the reason for the arousal;......hmmmmm. well;

yea, they all sense that the hand can develop but they don't know from pre-planned late position play check- raises, and so can't point to a specific item in the hand. and it's hard to do that because there are times that betting out is correct on the flop, but not here and your buddy correctly checks. then he makes what is tantamount to a check-call in the form of calling 2 bets cold. you must know that in this situation, he made a check-call, not a cold call. that is the source of the confusion. some of the players think he cold called 2 bets on the flop. and yes, he did; but in this situation, it was tantamount to a check-call only. the table perceives him as a check-caller; in any other situation, he would be a relative cold-caller. here he's a check-caller.

he check-calls, and his hand develops, but he proceeds on the turn like a cold-caller. here, he has a clear check-raise, but only if you first realize that he check-called the flop and may get the fold with the check-raise. they are also debating whether getting the fold was even possible in this specialized area.

now, he can also bet out on the turn, but then he should have planned to do that on the flop and bet out on the flop and called any raise or reraise.

the disagreement is his flop status which is check-caller not cold-caller. he did leave some bets on the table.