Palestinians Celebrate in Gaza

Shortly after the news of the bombing at Hebrew University in Jerusalem where 7 were killed (2 Americans) and 70 people injured celebrations erupted in Gaza. Palestinians took to the streets in joyous revelry shouting and dancing with approval at the revenge killing for last week's attack in Gaza by the Israelis.


Even the NY Times and CNN have never reported a story about Israelis celebrating and dancing in the streets after Palestinians were killed. Can we make any judgements from this? You bet we can. Palestians are loathsome, despicable people who want nothing but turmoil, bloodshed and chaos. Of course there can be no peace with them. There would be no reason for them to celebrate if there were no killings.

Thousands of Palestinians celebrated in the West Bank after the September 11th attacks:


http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSWorldTrade0109/11_arafat-ap.html

I will just mention some things related to what you are saying.


Celebrations of this type, at least in my mind, throw more doubt on whether the Palestinians will ever accept a Palestinian homeland as part of a peace process. Perhaps the long-standing avowed view of Hamas (which is that nothing is acceptable without the right of return and complete destruction of Israel) is actually a fairly widely held view amongst Palestinians, even those who are not in bloodthirsty militant terrorist organizations. I don't know about this.


I can't make the blanket statement that ALL Palestinian people are depraved like the ones who put on this disgusting display, because I don't believe that is true of any ethnic group or culture. However those who cheer such slaughters of innocent students are indeed just that: Depraved. And I think it appears highly likely that there is a higher percentage of depraved individuals amongst Palestinians than in most other ethnic groups. Indeed, this sort of depraved view is being routinely taught and supported by imams, muftis and mullahs in much of the Islamic world right now. It's sad, it's disgusting, and it's wrong.


A couple of excerpts from the recent TIME magazine article may serve as an example of what people are being taught throughout much of the Arab world:


"Mohammed al Odad is a government minister in Abha, but he is dismayed. "The fundamentalists have total control of the masses," he says. "It gets worse and worse." Parents say they are fed up with the Wahhabist school curriculum, which rears students on a diet of intolerance. A typical passage from a sixth-grade history textbook vows that "Arabs and Muslims will succeed, God willing, in beating the Jews and their allies."


Also: "In a televised address, Sheik Abd-al-Rahman al-Sudays, imam of the Mosque of Mecca, declared that God turned Jews into "pigs and monkeys," condemned the "poisonous culture and rotten ideas" of the West, and trashed Hinduism."


So Arabs are being fed lies which are truly poisonous, and I have a sense of foreboding that a major conflict will eventually ensue, pitting the Arabs/Muslims against the rest of the world. Meanwhile in Palestine the depraved dance in the streets.

"Mohammed al Odad is a government minister in Abha, but he is dismayed. "The fundamentalists have total control of the masses," he says. "It gets worse and worse." Parents say they are fed up with the Wahhabist school curriculum, which rears students on a diet of intolerance. A typical passage from a sixth-grade history textbook vows that "Arabs and Muslims will succeed, God willing, in beating the Jews and their allies."


The fact that many countries in this region are teaching their children to think this way is truly scary, especially when considered in light of the advances in technology and the ease of acquiring/creating weapons of mass destruction, as you have mentioned previously.


I also think a major conflict between Islamic countries and the West is likely (unless something is done to change this way of thinking, and of teaching children to think), and the consequences will be horrendous for all.

"Palestians are loathsome, despicable people who want nothing but turmoil, bloodshed and chaos. Of course there can be no peace with them."


And of course there will not be when people have this attitude. Violence begets only more violence and hatred.

M,


You might compare our own textbooks and how they have treated and continue to treat the notion of Manifest Destiny. Slanting "history" is nothing new.


I, too, am appalled by such behavior as dancing and celebrating in the streets, but, I think, it's somewhat reminiscent of the celebrations touched off by O.J's not guilty verdict. Imagine substituting "African-Americans" for "Palestinians."


John

Reuters has a pro-Palestinian bias, so I can't see how you can disavow this one.

I agree that slanting history is nothing new.


I feel bad calling those who celebrate the murders of innocent students "depraved." Yet I feel it is true that they, or at least their behavior, is depraved.


As far as teachings in schools are concerned, I'm sure even ours are not 100% accurate and unbiased. Yet I am also pretty sure that ours are far less off-base than many of the radical religious teachings going on right now in the Midle East. I feel the scope of the problems of these teachings is vast, and presents a grave danger of massive proportions. I also believe that thee is a cult of suicide-bombers, yes, a cult--there are too many similarities with other suicide cults to not take notice of many parallels. It is all the more enhanced and strengthened by the Palestinian problem. There is definitely a cult of suicide-bombing mentality spreading throughout much of the Arab world, and there is also a cult of Jihad. The more I read of their beliefs, sworn allegiances, absolute fealty, and belief of a reward in the hereafter for "martyrdom", the more it seems that there is a cult-like thread running through much of this. And that is nothing if not very dangerous. What to do about it? I don't know, but I am sure that we must have very good "armor".


I agree with Andy Fox, of course, that hatred is not appeased by hatred. However the sad part is that neither is hatred often appeased by love. Love has a chance of appeasing hatred IF it is an appeasable form of hatred, from an appeasable source. However, many times it is not--it is a force that will hate irregardles (for instance the Nazi party could not be appeased by love and the world simply had to fight it).


So what of the Palestinians? I don't know but with the whole Middle East getting closer and closer, perhaps, to getting out of hand, I sometimes wonder if NATO shouldn't just go and occupy the whole Middle East and slowly get things under control over a couple decades. Practical? Probably not. But if they persist in teaching and fomenting hatred towards us, we may eventually come under so much pressure, and under so many attacks, that that could become the only option. Let's hope it doesn't come to that, but fanatic views such as those of al Qaeda are actually rather popular in the Middle East now: it's just that most Middle Easterners are not in practical positions to go and join the jihad. Yet many want to, and would, if they did not have families and careers to keep them at home.

...according to this Reuters story.


What's the answer?


Arbitrarily designate a homeland and make the borders super-secure (like the Berlin Wall was)?


Turn all of Palestine into a giant prison with routine lockdowns, and no Arabs allowed into Israel proper?


Let them settle their differences with swords and shields, nets and tridents in a coliseum?


This whole thing is getting beyond ridiculous.

Really? If violence begets hatred why are we so chummy with Japan and Germany?


Of course they hated us until we pulverized them and perhaps the Palestinians will stop hating Israel when they are completely pulverized. I'm anxious to find out if the pattern repeats.

After millions of deaths, people got tired of burying their children. Pulverization is not my idea of a solution, rather it's the problem.


We're chummy with Japan and Germany now because there's money in it for everyone concerned.

"Palestians are loathsome, despicable people who want nothing but turmoil, bloodshed and chaos.

Of course there can be no peace with them."


I so agree with your logic.


The question is, how best to deal with them? They are dethpicable, and they are stubborn and stupid, stupid people, as you say. They don't know when they are licked, goddamit!..


So, I propose, in ascending order of preference, the methods that would deal effectively with them :


3.- Deport them all to Jordan. All the wretched lot -- men, women and children! It's exactly the old Sharon plan, circa 1980s. Time to dig up the old plans.


2.- Having these loathsome, despicable people anywhere near Israel would be still dangerous. Ship them off to Madagascar! Hey, it was the first place that the Great Powers considered as a land for the Jews, before the War, so why not, eh? Let's dig up those blueprints.


1. Dispense with the niceties and unleash the Fire of David upon 'em.


--Cyrus

"I sometimes wonder if NATO shouldn't just go and occupy the whole Middle East and slowly get things under control over a couple decades."


This was the idea behind the British Mandate in Palestine. What happened was that they eventually threw their hands up in the air and gave up.


It's an interesting parallel to current events. What really chased the British out was the Zionist terrorists. The mainstream Zionists constantly claimed they had nothing to do with Begin and his gang and always denounced their activities. I believe the mainstreamers truly abhored the terror; but they felt, from the 1930s on, that force would be the only way to get the British out and to subdue the Palestinian Arabs.

They were correct. And I think most in Likud, Sharon included, still think this.


Many of the current Palestinian terrorists have studied Begin's book The Revolt . It seems ridiculous to us, but is it possible that they (and by they, I mean the most radical of the terrrorist groups) think they can get the Israelis out by force? Certainly the actions of Hamas could lead one to that conclusion. After all, they saw the success of something that seemed impossible, the triumph of an imported, alien thing, Zionism, in their land. Why couldn't something like this happen again?


I wish I had the answers. Maybe, as you allude to in another post, there are no answers after 100 years of violence and hatred. I've studied the history of Zionism, and in particular the relationship of the Jews with the Palestinians and it's one long, sorry story on both sides. Abba Eban said the Palestinians never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity. I also think the Jews wanted them to miss those opportunities. Neither people has proved themselves worthy of the land.


So perhaps the only choices are A) pulverization (see Sammy B. below); or B) courage and statemanship. I see nothing on either side to make me feel we're going to see anything of B) in the near future. I see a lot to indicate we're going to see A).


An unending tragedy for all concerned.

There is a fortune in tourism to be had in the Holy Land if people could trvel in safety. We're talking about the cradle of the three major religions and many of their holiest sites.


But, unfortunately the Palestinians can't see that through their hatred and jealousy. Once the most fervent Israeli hating elements realize it's in their best interest to tolerate Israel then there will be peace.


I'm not hopeful because in addition to being loathsome and despicable they are also spiteful and stupid.

Neither people has proved themselves worthy of the land.


Oh give me a break.


The Israelis have turned dust into farmland. They've built modern cities, set up a working governemnt, they have courts and laws and police.


They have an economy and they have shown tolerance to all faiths. And for some reason there are those who would like to exterminate them.


They deserve it. They've made that rock into a garden and now, after all the work is done the Palestinians look with envy and instead of putting their backs into a plow and doing it themselves they'd rather simply take it away.

"Palestians are loathsome, despicable people"


I suppose you think that you're honoring the victims of the Hebrew University attack by adopting the mentality of their murderers. Shame on you.

"There is a fortune in tourism to be had in the Holy Land if people could trvel in safety."


Ahh, here's the solution. What we do is just sit everybody down at the bargaining table and tell them the deal. Their countries have been sold to Disney and MGM-Mirage. Not a negotiable position, you guys couldn't run it, we sold it out from under you. To enforce the terms of the sale, we put "cart bombs" in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, Mecca, Damascus, Cairo, and select other cities. "Cart bombs" are special 100 megaton nuclear bombs that just sit in the public square where all citizens can see them. There's a special message from Disney and MGM Mirage saying if you guys get out of hand, we get our government to hit the button. In the meantime, the area can be developed for tourism, with the most tacky things imaginable. For instance, Jesus didn't like money changers in the temple, so we put a casino and the central MGM credit department and casino cage as near to the West Wall as possible. Disney would be strongly encouraged to develop biblical theme parks. They could even cater to adults with stuff like the Sodom and Gomorrah fun house. Interesting to see what MGM Mirage would do. I would love to play poker with a view of ancient holy sites, just for the decadence of putting 4000 years of problems in their proper perspective next to 15 holdem. Ahh, to hit a runner-runner flush at the spot where Mohammed read his first book or whatever. And be able to buy a souvenir.

I agree that it is wrong to condemn ALL members of any group like that, but what he says may well be true to a higher percentage in that group compared to many other national or ethnic groups. Just because they weren't BORN that way doesn't meant a higher proportion of them haven't developed to BE that way.


Celebrating in the streets by the THOUSANDS at the recent university bombing is just that: loathesome and despicable behavior.

I was not trying to honor those attacked.


I was very plainly pointing out that those who would celebrate are scum. Do you disagree?


During the Passover Seder we (Jews) are instructed not to rejoice over the defeat of the Egyptian army at the Red Sea. We are instructed to mourn the deaths of our enemies as well as those of our comrades because even the deaths of our enemies is not something to celebrate.


Does this make Jews better? Not necessarily but it certainly says a bit about what we're taught as opposed to what's taught to Palestinian children.

"I think, it's somewhat reminiscent of the celebrations touched off by O.J's not guilty verdict. "


If they celebrated when Ron and Nicole were murdered perhaps you'd have a point. But cheering when one of your own beats the rap with due process, well, many of them can simply relate.

"I was very plainly pointing out that those who would celebrate are scum. Do you disagree?"


This a distortion of your own words: "Palestinians are loathsome, despicable people who want nothing but turmoil, bloodshed and chaos. Of course there can be no peace with them."


Since the issue of making peace with the Palestinians obviously isn't limited to those that celebrate terrorism, I'd accept your post-hoc tailoring of your remarks if you were more honest about it. I'd also accept it if it weren't such a common dodge, such as proclamations by the head of Shas the "Arabs" must be exterminated, which his acolytes later insist should be interpreted as "terrorists," and Begin's reference to "Palestinians" as "two-legged beasts," followed by a radical limitation that he really meant those who kill Jewish children. I'm a little sick of flagrant racism in the initial broadcase followed by phony revisionism when called on it.


So yes, I very much disagree with your original statement. It is very much in line with the thinking of the murderers and therefore provides a scintilla of vindication for their mentality. As for the celebrants being "scum," I sort of agree, but am reluctant to dismiss as "scum" the mass of humanity that has been guilty of demonstrating racist hatred from time to time. For example, I don't think you are "scum."


"During the Passover Seder we (Jews) are instructed not to rejoice over the defeat of the Egyptian army at the Red Sea. We are instructed to mourn the deaths of our enemies as well as those of our comrades because even the deaths of our enemies is not something to celebrate.

Does this make Jews better?"


It might, but the better view, IMO, is more firmly engrained in Jewish tradition: one should to what one can to prevent death, instead of just regretting it.

CA: "It might, but the better view, IMO, is more firmly engrained in Jewish tradition: one should to what one can to prevent death, instead of just regretting it."


Precisely why all the terrorist leaders and lieutenants, etc. should all be captured or killed ASAP. This in itself would go a long ways towards preventing future deaths.

Sammy,


Yes, you might be right; my analogy might have been better. However, I'm sure you wouldn't deny that those celebrations weren't sparked by Simpson's "beating the rap," but, rather, the perception by African-Americans that they had won a symbolic victory through Simpson's not guilty verdict.


John

It's a bit hard to see how they could logically feel that way...though no doubt that's exactly how many of them did feel...I think what the trial showed more was not any kind of symbolic victory for blacks in general, but rather what unlimited funds can accomplish in individual cases. Those cheering couldn't afford Johnny Cochrane et al so why should they cheer. In fact I would think they might rather have found it somewhat distressing, all things considered...it almost seemed to imply that he NEEDED that much money to beat the rap.

and after that, perhaps give the Palestinians the accord Arafat now wishes he had taken two years ago. Just make sure they are defanged and declawed first--by that I mean the most radical terrorists who are opposed to any peace accord (military wing of Hamas especially) are no longer viable.

M,


As Pascal said, "The heart has its reasons which reason knows nothing of."


John

and given that Hamas is now targeting places whee they know Americans will be (the Hebrew University), maybe we should go and help Israel get rid of the military wing of Hamas.

"I suppose you think that you're honoring the victims of the Hebrew University attack by adopting the mentality of their murderers."


This is a distortion of my entire thought.


To recap, the Palestinians are not only loathsome and despicable they are lazy and stupid as well. Add to that they've found that their most renewable natural resource (children) make excellent shields and propaganda tools.


The ones that celebrated are loathsome, despicable, lazy and stupid scum.


How's that?

... were made for each other.