The worst tournament play ever?

[Ulysses]

Does this win the prize?

PokerStars $30 SNG.

Down to 5 players. I have 4000. BB has 325. Blinds are 150/300.

I raise to 1000. Everyone folds to BB. BB folds, leaving him w/ 25 chips. He was still there - it wasn't an auto-fold or anything like that. He had bad cards, so he folded.

[Bokonon]

So, he was playing a little tight /images/graemlins/smile.gif. Stop pickin' on the poor guy!

[Al_Capone_Junior]

As discussed in tournament poker for advanced players, if the person raising will do so with any two cards, (i.e. YOU with a huge stack and him with only double the blind), then you should call with any two cards. The extra $25 means nothing.

This paid off for me very nicely yesterday. The player to my right had a huge stack, and raised every single time, but would rarely, if ever, raise more than 2x the BB. I was short. Blinds at 100-200, I have 400, post half to the BB. All fold, he raises. I call with 62o. He has 74o. I catch a deuce and double. Next round, blind is 400 and I have 800, posting half my stack. He of course raises and I must call, because no random hand is more than a 3:1 favorite over my two random cards. My J3o doubles again, beating his T3s when we both flop a three. Of course there is some luck to this story, but mathematically there was no luck at all, I HAD to make these calls. I wound up winning the SNG, BTW. If he knew what I knew, he would have been better off just calling, then betting no matter what came on the flop.

al

[Prickly Pete]

I saw this yesterday. Blinds at 100-200. BB is all-in for 20. All fold to SB who folds. /images/graemlins/confused.gif
BB sextupled (???) up to 120 in the process.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Was the SB asleep?

[Prickly Pete]

I figured he must've been disconnected or something. But the fold came after a few seconds of thinking and he was in on the next hand.

He must not enjoy money.
/images/graemlins/wink.gif /images/graemlins/wink.gif /images/graemlins/wink.gif /images/graemlins/wink.gif /images/graemlins/wink.gif /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Copernicus]

I have won PP or PS SNGs after being down to 40, 50 and 65 chips (the language used by one of the opponents in the 65 chipper was quite vivid!). If your 1000 raise was early, with decent stacks to play after you and clearly not an "any two cards raise" it may not be as horrible as you make out. A chip and a chair is better than wasting even 25 on hopeless rags.

[snowman]

x

[youtalkfunny]

Blinds are 100-200. BB is all-in for 20. All fold to small blind.

PUT 40 IN THE MAIN POT, AND GIVE THE REMAINDER (SIDE POT) TO SB! Then run out the cards.

How on earth can the BB bet 20, and collect 100 from a single opponent?

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Is this a troll?

Are you seriously saying that a player who is getting, I believe, 31:1 on an all-in preflop call might be correct to fold?

If you're serious, then I'm sorry but I can't think of any kind way to put this, you're completely crazy or wildly ignorant.

The player who folded to save his last T25 was either being stupid, or was ignorant of the facts when he clicked fold. Maybe he was playing multiple games at once, and didn't realize what he was doing, but absent an explanation like that, the guy was a moron or simply completely ignorant.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[drewjustdrew]

Greg,
When is it automatic to call in terms of stack size from the big blind when you are short stacked. I was playing in one of the 2nd chance NLHE tourneys at the wsop this year and had approximately one bet left after I posted the big blind. Let's use $200 as an example. A person in mid position raised and everyone folded to me. I had something like 9-5 off and I folded. The person next to me chastized me. I knew it was unlikely that I would go further without playing that hand, but I felt the raiser did not have random cards. As it turned out, I played my small blind with 9-4 and won the hand. I played for another hour before being eliminated on the bubble with another questionable play that I won't share now.

[Copernicus]

On the basis of calling odds he has become pot bound by the blind. However, while he may be getting 30+/1 on the 25, those are fallacious odds in the context of the entire hand and tournament. His concern isnt making a mathematically correct play on the last $25, his concern is survival. He obviously doesnt stand much chance either way.

My only point was to ridicule the play without considering the entire context might be unduly harsh. I am neither crazy nor the least bit ignorant. I am also not arrogant enough to ridicule a player or poster for what, in the overall context of the situation, may be a very reasonable move, because Ive been there and won..not often, but often enough to know it can be the right play.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

No offense, but he's all-in for 25 on the SB on the next hand. Even if he knew he'd be dealt a pair there, playing this hand is still a better value.

[Copernicus]

Despite Gregs vehement reply, the correct answer to your question is that there is NO $ point where a call is forced on the BB. There are situations where winning that hand become obviously hopeless and you are better off holding on to those last $$ for whatever slim chance that gives you. The situation you cited and my comebacks are examples. I am sure you would find similar ones among top tournament players who have been reduced to a chip and a chair and made respectable finishes against world class players. To think any recovery is hopeless against the typical online small stakes tourney player just demonstrates a lack of confidence in your game.

[Copernicus]

You are almost certainly correct, and a fold would be far more reasonable if he were the SB, not the BB in this hand. However, I still wouldnt ridicule folding unsuited, unconnected cards less than T or J. (I'm NOT saying *I* would fold those hands, just that I wouldnt make fun of someone else doing it).

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I'm certainly not ridiculing anyone, however, with 750 already in the pot, the random chance of any two cards against one opponent should look like a better opportunity here than even AA on the next hand that can only win you 25 per caller. Statistically, any 2 cards here gives you a better mathmatical chance of making the money.

[ohkanada]

In the situation stated folding is certainly WRONG. Even if your opponent showed you KK and you had K2o (which I believe is the biggest underdog situation) you should still still call. You are a 16:1 underdog but with the pot paying you 30:1, you are making money. On average that 25 becomes almost 50 everytime you call. But that 16:1 underdog is more likely a 3:2 or 4:1 in the worst case since it is unlikely KK vs K2o.

"There are situations where winning that hand become obviously hopeless and you are better off holding on to those last $$ for whatever slim chance that gives you"

Post-flop I agree with you. There are many cases you would fold for a small amount if you felt they had the nuts and you have no chance to overtake. But pre-flop the worst case scenario is 16:1 and that is quite unlikely. Even AA vs 72o is only a 7:1 underdog.

"To think any recovery is hopeless against the typical online small stakes tourney player just demonstrates a lack of confidence in your game."

Not really. If you have the same situation in 17 tournies. Assume the 16:1 underdog. If I take the chance in all 17 tournies. One time I will have 750 and will have a reasonable chance to make money. 16 times I will be out. You on the otherhand would have 25, 17 times. I doubt with the blinds at 150-300, you will make it back to 750 1 in 17 times. And that is assuming the worst case scenario.

Ken Poklitar

[Greg (FossilMan)]

[ QUOTE ]
... while he may be getting 30+/1 on the 25, those are fallacious odds in the context of the entire hand and tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]

How are they fallacious? They are what they are. And since they are so strong, he is better off putting in the T25 here and risking immediate elimination, as opposed to saving that T25 for future hands. It will take more luck for him to run that T25 into a similar sized stack than it will for him to win this pot. And that's a certainty.

[ QUOTE ]
His concern isnt making a mathematically correct play on the last $25, his concern is survival.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, but that's fallacious thinking. His concern isn't survival, nor math, nor anything else other than money. At least, when I analyze these situations, that's my only concern. Which play provides me with the highest EV for my money? Survival doesn't make you any money unless you survive into the paying positions. In this spot, he is MUCH more likely to survive into the money by playing this hand than by folding it. Probably about 10 times more likely. Folding only guarantees survival for one more hand, which has no value whatsoever. Survival into the money paying positions will be maximized by playing this hand. AND his chances of finishing in a high money position will go up even more, maybe 50 times.

[ QUOTE ]
He obviously doesnt stand much chance either way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very true. But that has nothing to do with the correct decision, which is to risk going broke NOW, for the greater reward. Folding now is both a greater risk and a lower reward, so it is clearly wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
My only point was to ridicule the play without considering the entire context might be unduly harsh.

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as I know, we had the entire context, or close enough to ensure that folding was a mistake. I cannot imagine any facts that could be layered onto the original post, without changing any of the original facts as given, to make folding even close to correct.

[ QUOTE ]
... Ive been there and won..not often, but often enough to know it can be the right play.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've gotten lucky, in spots where less luck would've gotten you the same or better results. I've also come back from extremely low chips counts to win. That doesn't mean that the play that got me to such a low chip count was correct. In fact, the mere fact that I won from a low chip count has NOTHING to do with the decisions prior to that point.

Of course anybody with a chip and a chair has some chance. And therefore, just like runner-runner flushes, sometimes they will come through. But that doesn't mean that you should give up a better chance, just because the alternative leaves you with some chance of winning.

Sorry if my prior post offended you. I just didn't know how to respond, and show the total depth of my belief in the inaccuracy of your post, without being at least somewhat offensive. You really were that wrong.

Put the guy into a super-satellite on the bubble, and it might be correct to fold in such a spot. In a tourney that plays a proportional payout, and we're still not that close to the money, and no way is it ever going to be right to fold.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Prickly Pete]

I wondered the same thing - I figured he'd have 40 chips. But that's what happened in my tourney.

Does anyone know what is supposed to happen here? This happened at Party.

[curtains]

There are situations that occur quite often, especially in partypoker one table touranments, where folding with olny a ridiculous amount of money left after the blind is posted, is correct. However one clear reason why this CANT be the case in the posted hand, our player was in the BB and not the SB, thus not even giving his opponents a chance to be forced allin by the blinds, as the player in question will be forced allin by the SB next hand.

Often on the party one tables it comes down to 2 ginormous stacks and 2 tiny stacks, and you have like 550 left and the blinds are 150-300 but you can fold them both because an opponent is down to his last 150 or 200 in chips.

[jon_1van]

I have seen people come back with fewer than 100 chips.

The problem with this hand is that the blinds are 150/300...meaning there will be ante's.

So assume this guy wins his next hand. He goes to 125.

Now every hand afterwards he loses at least 20% of his stack. So he MUST catch a run of cards RIGHT NOW. He will probably need to win 3 straight hands to have a glimmer of hope. Each hand will be risking all of his stack.

So there are 5 players. Legitimately winning 3 hands in a row will happen 1 in 125 times. (I believe almost anyone would call your raise...it would be less than the BB)

The chances of this happening are less then getting lucky with 9-5 offsuit. So he should be playing his garbage.

By the way..think about the times you have seen someone make a huge comeback. Chances are the table was very short handed at the time.

[Bozeman]

No online SNG's that I know of have antes.

Craig

[Guy McSucker]

No online SNG's that I know of have antes.

Pokerstars no-limit hold'em ones do.

Guy.

[Andy B]

When it's folded to the big blind, he gets the pot. Doesn't matter whether he's all in for $20 or has $20k in front of him. The SB could have been guaranteed to get at least $80 back by completing. Another reason not to use the auto-fold button.

[David Ottosen]

It would depend on the stack sizes; if his hand was truly terrible, he might have decided to gamble on surviving the SB and hope someone bust out prior to his next set of blinds?

[Whitey]

I was watching a televised poker tournemant in the UK where Phil Helmouth jnr was in a very similar situation.
The one difference was that Phil was in the small blind,not the big blind but as usual Phil told everyone at the table what his thoughts were as he pondered a call with his last $50 in chips so I feel it may be relevant to the conversation.

Phil held Q 2 offsuit and was facing a raise from UTG.He had already posted his small blind of $50,plus there was the BB of $100 plus there was the UTG raise so the pot was worth $250.
Now Helmouth started thinking out loud saying he was getting the correct odds to call with his garbage which the other pros at the table agreed with,however he stated that he disagrees that pot odds are relevant due to the fact he was almost certainly facing a big hand and if he loses he goes out of the tourney.(the very next hand he gets 99 and doubles thru)
While I agree the pot sizes are different in this instance (also position for that matter) Helmouths thoughts on pot odds are relevant.

[Wake up CALL]

' Helmouths thoughts on pot odds are relevant. "

Relevant yes, correct no. I believe he went on to lose that tournament after doubling up. If he had tripled up by calling his last T50 first and then doubled up on the pocket nines he would have had a chance to win.

[Easy E]

More like 72off through 52off, maybe 8 and 9 with 5 gaps (and even that is questionable).

to give up on 30+:1 for a slipshot chance on the next hand to get at best 5:1, by saving your T25 for the SB hand.... I don't know much about tournaments, but I've learned THAT much.

Yes, your experience has dictated otherwise, but you might have been just lucky, or the fields you faced may have been pretty weak.... or you're the world's greatest short-stack player! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Michael Davis]

In a hold 'em preflop situation, the situation is never hopeless. There are lots of times where you are holding KK, your opponent could show you AA and you should call.

-Mike

[Whitey]

Helmouth did go out of that tourney after doubling up a few hands later.However the chances that he would of doubled up when he was in the small blind were nominal.(He had Q 2 his opponent QQ)

Are you saying the best tournemant player in the world is wrong??

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]

Are you saying the best tournemant player in the world is wrong??

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all, I am saying Phil Helmuth was wrong.

Edited Below:

The only times Phil could have been correct is if he absolutely knew the preflop raiser would only raise with AA KK or QQ, If he might raise with lesser hands such as AKs AKo JJ TT 99 or similar hands he was most certainly incorrect in folding. Perhaps Phil "looked into the raisers soul" and knew he held pocket queens but I really don't believe in his Voodoo powers. Do you?