Is Poker a Sport?

[Mikey]

What can you tell me about this game?
Is it a sport?
Is it not a sport?
What classifies a sport?

Tonight I got into a heated debate of why poker is a sport.
Can you think of the reasons that I gave?

Why is it that I have such a hard time explaining to the common man that this game has much more to do with skill than luck. I give valid reasons, I back up my reasons with facts but yet, they still say it is a game of gambling. Am I the one who is wrong or is it that most people just don't understand.

I am one of those that believe that Poker is a sport.
I am also one of those that believe that the common man has no idea about poker or probability or chances. It is for this reason that millions and millions of people flock to casino's weekly and play table games such as roulette, slots, and craps that don't understand about the long run.

Talk to me guys.

[Clarkmeister]

Its not a sport. Its a game. You even called it a game in your first sentence.

A sport involves athletic ability of some type, and IMO also involves direct interference from your competition. I break things into 3 categories. Sport, Skill Contest and Game.

Sports: Boxing, Baseball, Auto Racing, Horse Racing, Track.

Skill Contest: Field, Figure Skating, Golf, Bowling, Darts, Biathalon.

Games: Poker, Scrabble, Madden 2004, Euchre, Trivial Pursuit.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
they still say it is a game of gambling.

[/ QUOTE ]

They seem to have a point.

[Munga30]

Your structure is well thought out, but a few of your Sport examples suck.

Horse and auto racing are not sports because they depend more on the implements (horses and automobiles) than the competitors. While both may require some athletic ablility, that is not determinative of the outcome over the long term.

For example, did Jeff Gordon suddenly "lose it" in his prime athletic years, or does his car no longer have an advantage over the competition. (Disclaimer: I know little about NASCAR, but I'm going on the premise that Jeff is not nearly as dominant as he once was.)

Is racing sailboats a sport? (No.) Is racing bicycles a sport? (Yes.)

[Clarkmeister]

I disagree. Competitive Yachting is definitely a sport. Same with horse and auto racing.

They all require tremendous physical strength and endurance, all compete directly against their opponents, and use skill to determine the outcome. Obviously the quality of boat/car/horse is very important, but that's just a component of the sport. If the role that the driver/jockey had wasn't critical then the best drivers and jockeys wouldn't end up with generally the best cars and horses to drive/ride.

Time trial biking isn't a sport. Competitive biking is. The Tour de France combines both, but is more heavily weighted to the group/direct competition aspect and is a sporting event.

The Olympic gold given based on a time trial is not.

While I'm not an auto racing fan, I never understood why the fact that their equipment (a car) disqualifies them from being athletes.

[SittingBull]

play these table games has NOTHING to do with whether or not they understand
the mathematics of the games. MOST of these people ENJOY PLAYING these games. If they lose,NO BIG DEAL;if they win,fine. They prefer to entertain themselves in this manner than to go to movies,bars,and dances.
They simply want to have a little fun and eat the buffet.
HappyPokering and God bless U /images/graemlins/smile.gif
SittingBull

[M2d]

How, by your definition, is field not a sport? similar arguments can be made for figure skating (ugh) bowling, golf and darts (Iknow nothing about biathalon, so I can't say anything about it). In these, though each competitor acts at a different time, those who act later definately alter their performance based upon the results of those who went before them. A skater may not try a quad when a triple will win it for him/her, given that the closest competition fell in the previous program. A golfer may choose to go for a long par 5 in two if he needs the strokes down the stretch, or may choose iron off the tee instead of driver if he knows that he has a comfortable cushion.
These competitors are reacting to their competition just as much as a track athlete is, just not simultaneously.

[Robk]

[ QUOTE ]
What classifies a sport?


[/ QUOTE ]

Easy: If you can play it while smoking it's not a sport. If you can't then it is a sport.

[JTG51]

LOL, that's a pretty good definition.

[Clarkmeister]

"reacting to" is not the same as "direct interference from".

According to Webesters, all of the non-games above are sports. I just drew a line between what I consider sports and what are essentially athletic exhibitions.

[7stud]

Easy: If you can play it while smoking it's not a sport. If you can't then it is a sport.

I like that definition a lot, and I think that it really gets at the essentials of a sport: your heart rate has to go up from physical exertion, and it has to be enough to make you sweat.

Does that make auto racing a sport? I think your heart rate goes up because of adrenaline and fear not physical exertion, and that kind of heart rate increase isn't healthy. If endurance was all it took for something to be a sport, then games with long matches would be sports. Not a sport. The same goes for horse racing. If you're a jockey--not a sport. If you're the horse--definitely a sport.

Ice skating not a sport? The competitors are running and jumping and can hardly catch their breath after they're finished with their routines. It's like track on ice. How many fat, out of shape ice skaters are there? Zero. Definitely a sport.

That leads to the conclusion that if more than 5% of the competitors are over weight--not a sport. Baseball probably used to qualify. Golf is a tricky one. I think it combines some aspects of sport with a game. Walking 18 holes involves physical exertion especially in the heat, and all that walking is healthy for you. Although, maybe 10 years ago, golf wasn't a sport because it violated my number of fat participants rule....and of course some golfers smoke while playing. Golf is a tough one. I think the fact that you could smoke the whole time really is telling. Not a sport.

Time trial bicycle racing not a sport? You have to be kidding on that one! Non drug taking bicycle racers(though I'm not sure there are any of those in the pro ranks, including Lance Armstrong) are some of the healthiest people on the planet, and the amount of training and physical exertion is hard to fathom. It seems identical to a swimming race to me, except time trials are longer. Definitely a sport.

Now how about poker? Just because it takes skill and is different than playing the lottery doesn't make it a sport--it just makes it a game of skill rather than a game of chance. Fat out of shape participants? Way too many--probably 80%. Does it require physical exertion? Nope. Can you smoke while playing? Yep. Sorry, definitely not a sport.

[Munga30]

Well, we'll agree to disagree. However, I will make two points:

1. The human element is "critical" in all of the sports/exhibitions/games, so that's not really something you can rely upon.

2. Your "best competitor earns the best equipment" argument is circular. Which came first, the good car or the good driver?

[rayrns]

"Horse and auto racing are not sports because they depend more on the implements (horses and automobiles) than the competitors."

If you are referring to the jockeys as competitors, then you clearly have never ridden a 1000lb animal going 40 miles an hour while trying to steer the animal around, between other horses or horses and the rail. Lb for Lb, jockey's are probably the most physically fit of all human competitors. Horse racing is commonly known as the "Sport of Kings". While trying to pick a winning horse (handicapping) could be considered more of a game.

[Copernicus]

I'll vote for boxers as the most fit. Try going 3 rounds with your sister, much less 15 with Hollyfield.

[ML4L]

Hey Mikey,

I took a class in Sports Psychology last fall, and we spent the entire first day discussing what was and was not a sport. My professor, a renowned psychologist, said that, as far as sports psychology is concerned, poker is not considered a sport (I got rid of my textbook, so I can't provide the definition for you).

However, society regards many things to be sports that my professor does not. Obviously, the people at ESPN think that it's either a sport or fairly close to one.

Before I took my psychology class, I thought that poker was a sport. Now, I've come to believe that not all games of skill are necessarily "sports."

ML4L

[banditbdl]

I've always felt a sport is any competition relying on physical skills that can be timed, measured, or clearly scored(i.e. football, basketball, baseball). Anything where you can be judged on something such as gymnastics, figure skating, and freestyle skiing and snowboarding events are athletic exhibition, not sport.

There is no physical element to poker, it is a game of skill and chance.

[Allan]

Does that make billiards a sport?

Allan

[banditbdl]

Yep, albeit a wimpy one.

I think the hang-up here is that we think of "Sport" as being more physically taxing or impressive than "non-Sport" when this isn't always the case. I think a better question is what makes a competitor an athlete. A gymnast or figure skater is, a billiards player is not. You can compete in a sport and not be an athlete, and you can be an athlete without competing in a sport.

[Kingpin71]

"There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor-racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games." - Ernest Hemingway

Is there a higher praise?

If your life is not on the line you are playing a game, or possibly lawn darts.

[Wheezl]

Athletic ability+direct interference= Sport.(I am assuming from the context that direct interference means physical contact and excludes the psychological confrontations that can occur in "competitive events" such as golf or billiards)

Track=Sport? no direct interference there.

Golf=Skill Contest? no direct interference there.

Both of these "competitive events" no doubt require a degree of athleticism, yet you classify them differently. Simply one of many holes in your worthless definition.

[Uston]

What can you tell me about this game?
I like it.

Is it a sport?
No.

Is it not a sport?
Yes.

What classifies a sport?
For starters, an activity in which you are not likely to get fatter while participating.

[Cosimo]

NASCAR racing requires a tremendous amount of physical strength and endurance. The vehicles get very hot over the course of a multi-hour race, driver's can't stop to take a breather, and keeping your body upright in the seat requires a lot of strength in muscles that you don't otherwise use.

I used to play first-person shooters a lot (like Quake and Counter-Stirke). There are a lot of gamers that play competitively, and a few that make 6-figure winnings doing so. Is that a sport? It involves direct interference (acting and responding to your opponent), and some degree of physical skill (mostly dexterity).

Western society traditionally views an athletic competive event as a sport, even if there isn't direct interference (such as in time-trial racing). That doesn't necessarily mean that's a good and useful definition -- but I think it is. Note that there are some athletic exhibitions where, due to the performance of other athletes, you don't have to score as high in order to win (such as golf, track, figure skating).

That means that poker, Quake, golf, time-trial racing, and a few others are not sports.

I think the biggest problem is that there is no word in the English language to identify competetive games that are not primarily athletic in nature, such as poker and chess.

-Cosimo

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the biggest problem is that there is no word in the English language to identify competetive games that are not primarily athletic in nature, such as poker and chess.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno. Game seems to be working pretty well.

[Ulysses]

[wdbaker]

[ QUOTE ]
I've always felt a sport is any competition relying on physical skills that can be timed, measured, or clearly scored(i.e. football, basketball, baseball). Anything where you can be judged on something such as gymnastics, figure skating, and freestyle skiing and snowboarding events are athletic exhibition, not sport.

There is no physical element to poker, it is a game of skill and chance.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can do more chip tricks than you and shuffle chips faster and in greater quantity than you so I hereby decree it a sport /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Rolf Slotboom]

Guys,

I am one of those people who have always claimed that poker is a true sport. I have done this mostly as a reaction to those people who claim poker is just "a form of gambling". In fact, I think both views are not entirely correct. The fact is: poker is a game of skill, but with a lot of (especially relatively short-term) chance. Another fact: it is not very demanding, psysically. Another fact: it IS very demanding, mentally (if you play or want to play at a very high level). But is it a game, or is it a sport?

I think that when played in some kind of regular competition, where only the very best players in the world are allowed to enter, and where everybody tries to play at the best possible level, we can even consider poker a top sport. The current tournament and live play situation, with pros and amateurs competing in the same event, is not top sport, IMO. However, I still lean towards calling it sports rather than just a game. I also call bowling, darts, chess and billiards sports, so I guess it would be a little misleading to call poker just a game. The best thing to define poker in the way it is played nowadays might be a "sports game", but this is just my opinion- nothing more, nothing less.

Regards,
Rolf.

[Clarkmeister]

Ask Mary Decker Slaney if there is direct interference in track.

For someone who created a profile just to respond to this thread, I expected a better response.

[M2d]

I'd go with H2O polo players at the most fit.

[WizeGuy33]

Games are competitive activities bound by rules.
Sports are competitive physical activities bound by rules.
Sports are games, but games are not necessarily sports.
The fact that you can play poker over the internet proves that poker is not physical, and thus not a sport.

[ChipWrecked]

I saw poker on ESPN.

That makes poker a sport.

[Munga30]

The closest I've ever come is racing high-er performance go-karts. After four, ten lap races, I was a sweaty mess and my lats and shoulders were sore the next day. I have absolutely no doubt that racing on the NASCAR scale and above takes tremendous physical fitness (to borrow a word from Clarky).

That being said, the cars are of a mass and race at a speed that the outcome of the race has much more to do with the enigneering of the car than the engineering of the driver. In my opinion, the two factors are so out of proportion that auto racing does not fall within my definition of a "sport."

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Not necessarily - ESPN = the Entertainment and Sports Programming Network. Maybe poker's just entertainment. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[JTG51]

So does that mean everything I see on MTV is music?

[Nottom]

I saw poker on the Travel Channel. Does that make it a vacation?

[ChipWrecked]

[ QUOTE ]
So does that mean everything I see on MTV is music?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Everything you see on MTV2 is music. At least that's what that psycho babydoll-puppet keeps telling me.

[ChipWrecked]

[ QUOTE ]
I saw poker on the Travel Channel. Does that make it a vacation?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

(It sure as hell is one for me)

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
So does that mean everything I see on MTV is music?

[/ QUOTE ]

Prior to about 1985, this could be answered with a yes.

Sigh. The good old days of MTV.

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
If you can play it while smoking it's not a sport. If you can't then it is a sport.


[/ QUOTE ]

So Poker in NV is a sport, but poker in CA isn't? Unless its a home game where the host allows smoking? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[risen]

I define a sport as a

1. Pleasurable activity that
a) Involves direct or indirect competition with an adversary,
b) Has an ultimate goal or prize, and
c) Culminates in an undisputed winner

So Chess, Poker and Billiards are sports, whereas sex is not. Unless you're kinky. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[JTG51]

Good lord, I hardly even remember 1985!

I'm terrified that ESPN is going to go the same route as MTV now that they are starting this dramatic series "Playmakers" .

[Wake up CALL]

Yes according to Merriim-Webster:

1 a : a source of diversion : RECREATION b : sexual play c (1) : physical activity engaged in for pleasure (2) : a particular activity (as an athletic game) so engaged in

[Nottom]

reverse that

[ChipWrecked]

The pursuit of sex is most definitely a sport.

[Homer]

So does that mean everything I see on MTV is music?

I don't know, do they show rap on MTV? If so, no, if not, maybe.

-- Homer

[MaxPower]

Also, if you are handed a bouquet of flowers after you are done competing, it is not a sport.

[Cyrus]

To me, the definition of sport involves physical action. Any competitive activity can qualify as sport, as long as it has rules and involves competition towards a specific end result (eg most points scored). Only if there is no specific end result as an objective, do we have an exhibition (or simply an exercise) instead of sport.

Sports : Weight Lifting; Ice Hockey; NBA Basketball; Competitive Swimming; 10,000-Meters Run; Competitive Diving; Darts; Snooker; Formula Car Racing; etc.

Exhibition/Exercise : Mountain climbing; Icescapades; Harlem Globetrotters Basketball; Scuba Diving; Jogging; Bungee jumping; Antique Car Racing; etc.

Competitive activities that do not involve physical action at all do not qualify as sports, in my book. And apparently in the supreme Sports organisation's books neither, since the Int'l Olympic Committee will not accept Chess as an Olympic sport -- and quite rightly so.

There are a lot of competitive activities that involve mental skills (plus varying degrees of chance), such as Poker, Chess, Go, Mastermind, Monopoly, Bridge, and many others, but they are not sports. They are something else. Call them whatever you want, call them games if you like. A completely paralyzed person could play any of those games, via a third party that follows his instructions about play. However, this cannot be (physical) sport.

[bob2007]

Don't kid yourselves. Poker is not a sport. You are not atheletes. A sport invovles physical movements of a certain degree. Poker is a game. If poker can be considered a sport, so too can all sorts of games. I guess monopoly + all those other games can be sports as well.

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't kid yourselves. Poker is not a sport. You are not atheletes. A sport invovles physical movements of a certain degree. Poker is a game. If poker can be considered a sport, so too can all sorts of games. I guess monopoly + all those other games can be sports as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Must I be an athlete to participate in a sport? I think not.

[slamdunkpro]

Sorry,

If Snooker is a sport, then so is poker.

[Cyrus]

"If Snooker is a sport, then so is Poker."

No, under the rules that I have established, snooker is a sport, poker isn't. If you accept the rules, there is no dispute. If you don't accept the rules, offer alternative ones.

I have submitted an easy test : Can snooker be played through a third party, a proxy? No, because if you have somebody else handling the broom, and follow your instructions, it will be his physical ability that's decisibe not yours, he would be effectively playing snooker and not you. Can poker be played through a third party? Yes, because you could be paralyzed and have somebody else handle the cards, push the chips, collect the chips, cash in, cash out for you, all strictly according to your instructions, and it would be you that's playing poker, because those phyiscal actions your procy would execute do not involve any ability. The cards would not change either, on account on who handles 'em.

The above means that your physical body is not essential in poker, just your intellect. In snooker, it's both intellect and physical ability, in varying measures.

So, snooker yhes, poker no. Once more, I repeat, according to my rules, in which physicality is a necessary part, and which you are free to contest.

What do you propose instead ? If you exclude physicality as a necessary condition, crossword puzzle-solving becomes a sport.

--Cyrus

PS : Once more, my rules for accepting an activity as a sport: It has to be a competitive human activity; it has to have a specific end objective; and it has to involve physicality. All three conditions must apply.

[ElSapo]

I'm not putting forth an opinion, but Phil Ivey on last night's WSOP episode (I forget which one) said in an interview "like any other sport, you have to practice it (poker)."

[FR_Mainiac]

ESPN is actually Eastern Sports Network or spanish for sports!! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Poker is not a sport...period. It is a game. Sports has to have some type of physical skill invovled to win the event. Running to the rest room so you can make it back to your seat so you don't miss a hand doesn't make poker an athletic event.

[bob2007]

The elite players of sports can be known as athletes. Can any pro poker players be regarded as athletes in rocognition by the world population? Them, being unbiased from the views of poker players that play the game themselves - regarding themselves as people playing a sport? Laughable looking at yourselves in such high regard.

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
Laughable looking at yourselves in such high regard.


[/ QUOTE ]

Off th top of my head I am unable to think of a single living athlete that I hold in high regard. Perhaps therin lies the problem. You have athletes up on a pedestal and I simply consider them a class of people who participate in a game.

[Ed S.]

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[baggins]

Euchre is the second best card game ever invented. If there were enough places to play it for money, i'd rather make a living playing Euchre than Poker!

well... maybe not necessarily rather. but they are both very dear games to me. too dear to put one over the other. but of course, a casino couldn't do that because the whole partner thing makes it really hard to regulate cheating, etc.

[hutz]

I got tired of this thread about half-way through the posts, so if someone else pointed this out already please forgive me. The argument that "if it's on ESPN it must be a sport" is flawed. The initials "ESPN" stand for "entertainment," "sports," "programming," and "network." My guess is they would consider poker to fall squarely into the "entertainment" category. Besides, MTV shows more crappy reality shows (mostly spoiled college kids bitching at each other and hooking up) than it does music. Are the spoiled college kids now musicians because they participated in a crappy reality show on MTV?

[Al Mirpuri]

Do you not think that there is too little skill in Euchre to make it anything other than a high variance gamble?

[Ed S.]

There are tons of people who play euchre. Live Euchre Tournies accross the nation and in canada go on each year. Where you play for money. All be it the tourney formats suck a little because they want a fast tourney, but the side games(money games) are great. Lots could be won. I wished my poker skills where at the level my Euchre Skills are at it would make things much easier for me in poker. /images/graemlins/grin.gif


Ed S.

[Ed S.]

I think in "some" respects euchre skill is greater in some areas than poker, because of the luck factor like in any game. Euchre's luck factor is high enough where the slightest mistake can cost you. So your skill or ability to play must maximize each "situation" to have a continued sucess at the game of euchre.


Ed S.

[budman]

I love to play, and find it exciting to watch, read about, etc. But I don't think it is anymore of a sport than bridge or stamp colecting.

[budman]

My son practices playing his trumpet. Is trumpet playing a sport?

[Simon Diamond]

I used to play first-person shooters a lot (like Quake and Counter-Stirke). There are a lot of gamers that play competitively, and a few that make 6-figure winnings doing so. Is that a sport? It involves direct interference (acting and responding to your opponent), and some degree of physical skill (mostly dexterity).

Are you telling us that people play Counter Strike for instance, and make a living from it? Or were you referring to other games?

I agree with you on the NASCAR front, just playing NASCAR Racing 2003 is tiring enough trying to keep the car in line on the straights at those high banked ovals. I imagine the drivers do sort of get some physical respite during caution periods and pit stops - though they still have to remain switched on mentally.

Simon

[budman]

[DONKEYJAWS]

the best classification of poker is:
"poker is a game of skill and strategy, given value by money"

i forgot where i heard that... i think it was a book, but i dont remember.

[baggins]

I think there is an incredible amount of skill in Euchre. there are not as many subtly different situations in Euchre as there are in Poker, and Poker doesn't require partner.

I do not know where to find information regarding Euchre tournaments. would anyone care to give me a link?

also, i don't know anybody offline that i would want to be my Euchre partner.

[mosch]

Does that make auto racing a sport?

Clearly you've never driven a race car. It's not like driving a lexus. The cabin temperature is usually well over 100 degrees, even in open cockpit cars like IRL and CART use. The brakes often require several hundred pounds of pressure to operate (remember, every stop on the track is done in the same manner as an emergency stop in your regular car), the steering usually requires a lot of effort to operate as well. On a road course it's not uncommon for the average time between shifts to be under 5 seconds. Can you imagine having to sit in a 130 degree car, shifting every 4 or 5 seconds, while handling a hard to turn steering wheel, in a car that will go out of control in some fashion if you make any minor mistake, at all?

I've only raced a little, I'm still saving up for a proper race car, but believe me, it's not simply fear and excitement, it's HARD and TIRING.

[ChipWrecked]

[ QUOTE ]
The argument that "if it's on ESPN it must be a sport" is flawed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, it wasn't an argument, it was a feeble attempt at humor. I'm ready to let it go now too. As Homer or somebody said, when I'm kidding I'll put a smiley in there /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Trefo]

It's not a sport, it's a game. Skill is a factor as well as luck.....Such as last night played well for most of the night.....and then i played 2-9 suited from early postion just for the hell of it. (i had been running good so i took a shot knowing i would fold after the flop).....Flop 9 6 5
I have 4 to my suit....Next card gets me the flush and i win a pot in which everyone says "I thought you were better than to play 2-9". It's competitive but there's no physical part to the game....I think a sport is something where you need a physical and mental aspect to the game.

[Wake up CALL]

"I think a sport is something where you need a physical and mental aspect to the game."

Then you and every dictionary I have researched disagree. Heh, I think a dog is a vegetable not an animal, nevermind the real defintion.

[baggins]

since when are dictionaries the ultimate souce for word definitions?

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
since when are dictionaries the ultimate souce for word definitions?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this a trick question? OK, I'll bite, between 1452 and 1455 when Gutenburg invented the printing press? Or perhaps when the first dictionary was printed in France circa 1467.

[ML4L]

Hey hutz et al.

Clarifying my statement, I personally do not buy into the fallacy that poker is a sport just because it is on ESPN; I was merely pointing out that some people do.

ML4L

[baggins]

see, i disagree. words come into usage, and they have definitions. dictionaries are attempts (with varying degrees of success) to document and organize these words for purposes of reference. they are, however, not authoritative in all cases. in many cases, definitions in dictionaries are inaccurate. this can be due to poor research or the simple, subtle shift in meaning that words undergo through usage and cultural shifts.

yeah, i know it sounds weird. but i just don't think dictionaries are above reproach. they are flawed in their aims at times.

the thing is, words mean what we say they mean. not what some pinhead in Oxford says they mean.

[GuitarMarc]

The logic of what he said: Since he considers it a sport, you have to practice it. Not that practicing it makes it a sport.

[RydenStoompala]

After some idiot decided that curling belongs in the Winter Olympics, I would rank poker a sport. In many countries you can still smoke and guzzle beer while curling. At least poker has cut down on the smoking. Sport is a short, sharp word so when someone says "like any sport, you have to practice," they could mean "like any activity combining multiple analytical and interpersonal skills, it requires practice," but that statement just does not pop....makes for bad television. Unlike many sports, poker does not require a lot of coordination. I have wound at least two dealers with my mucks and twice last night I knocked over my lucky chip tower with a coffee. The elderly rock beside me made a sport of glaring at me.

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
see, i disagree. words come into usage, and they have definitions. dictionaries are ....however, not authoritative in all cases. in many cases, definitions in dictionaries are inaccurate.
yeah, i know it sounds weird.
the thing is, words mean what we say they mean. not what some pinhead in Oxford says they mean.

[/ QUOTE ]

You bet your sweet bippy it is weird. What you are saying is that you have your own private language that other people may or may not understand depending on what meaning you happen to give a particular word. And if that person to whom you are speaking is weird as well they may think you are challenging them to a duel when you think you are asking them out for a glass of lemonade. I hardly believe this can be realistic. Therefore we have dictionaries so that the non-weird people all understand each other. Ergo a definition is just what it implies, a definition of a word. Some yahoo from Timbuktoo cannot change the definition, no matter how much they might like to do just that.

[baggins]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
see, i disagree. words come into usage, and they have definitions. dictionaries are ....however, not authoritative in all cases. in many cases, definitions in dictionaries are inaccurate.
yeah, i know it sounds weird.
the thing is, words mean what we say they mean. not what some pinhead in Oxford says they mean.

[/ QUOTE ]

You bet your sweet bippy it is weird. What you are saying is that you have your own private language that other people may or may not understand depending on what meaning you happen to give a particular word. And if that person to whom you are speaking is weird as well they may think you are challenging them to a duel when you think you are asking them out for a glass of lemonade. I hardly believe this can be realistic. Therefore we have dictionaries so that the non-weird people all understand each other. Ergo a definition is just what it implies, a definition of a word. Some yahoo from Timbuktoo cannot change the definition, no matter how much they might like to do just that.


[/ QUOTE ]

for almost all intents and purposes, you are right. words have fairly strict, rigid meanings. and those meanings can be found in dictionaries. but the contents of dictionaries don't define language. language defines the contents of dictionaries. the thing is, languages evolve. new words are being put into usage all the time. subtle shifts in meaning take hold in common usage, and eventually bear themselves out in more comtemporary dictionaries.

however, i am certainly not saying or implying that i have my own language that other people may or may not understand. that's not how language works, nor did i say that or imply it. what i AM saying is that definitions in dictionaries are attempts at describing language. they ARE NOT authoritative. the subtle shifts in meaning and context and connotation cannot be completely described by a dictionary. ever. language evolves way too fast for this to be possible. obviously, i'm not saying it is possible for 'banana' to mean 'blister'. but there are certain words which hold subtly different connotative qualities, and contextual differences in definition. these are not always described in dictionaries. which means that dictionaries are NOT ultimate sources for definitions.

also, i'll ask you to consider not skipping words in my posts. they are all there for a reason. when you skip some in an effort to quote me, you make me repeat myself. this isn't the first time this has happened.

[Wake up CALL]

"also, i'll ask you to consider not skipping words in my posts. they are all there for a reason. when you skip some in an effort to quote me, you make me repeat myself. this isn't the first time this has happened."

That is what those little ..... mean. I eliminated irrelevant phrases between relevant phrases and put the .... so as to denote there was other information in between. Also your entire post was just above mine for anyone to read and examine. Since you wrote the words in the first place I assumed you knew what you said. Also since you and I are the only two having this particular sub-discussion within this thread I saw no harm.

Back to our discussion: Dictionaries are printed everyday, I don't believe languages evolve faster than dictionaries are updated. Again simply because a "small" group of people choose to misuse a word that does not change the words' meaning for the rest of humanity. That only occurs when a large enough group accepts new or additional meanings and at that time dictionaries are updated to reflect the additional meanings.

For the relevance to this thread the definition of sport clearly includes poker. This can be disputed but not correctly.

[baggins]

"That is what those little ..... mean. I eliminated irrelevant phrases between relevant phrases and put the .... so as to denote there was other information in between. Also your entire post was just above mine for anyone to read and examine. Since you wrote the words in the first place I assumed you knew what you said. Also since you and I are the only two having this particular sub-discussion within this thread I saw no harm. "

fair enough. however, it seemed to me that the crux of our discussion rested on the words represented by your ....

"Back to our discussion: Dictionaries are printed everyday, I don't believe languages evolve faster than dictionaries are updated. Again simply because a "small" group of people choose to misuse a word that does not change the words' meaning for the rest of humanity. That only occurs when a large enough group accepts new or additional meanings and at that time dictionaries are updated to reflect the additional meanings.

For the relevance to this thread the definition of sport clearly includes poker. This can be disputed but not correctly. "

dictionaries may be printed every day. but they are not updated every day. i DO believe that language evolves enough to warrant the updates. otherwise, why update a dictionary if there are no changes necessary?

the problem is not a small group of people misusing a word. words have a locus of definitions, and groups operate within that locus, some focusing on one aspect or minor nuance of definition, others elsewhere. very large groups of people use words in slightly different manners and contexts with slightly different connotations and denotations. dictionaries attempt to document and record all this. but the language continues to evolve. that is precisely why we are able to have discussions like this. is poker a sport? well the depends on how you define sport. the term sport is called into question here. perhaps we are not ready for poker to be termed 'sport'. or perhaps we are. but if we all call poker a sport, then it becomes a sport, even if that goes directly against any dictionary's definition of 'sport' (which you seem to argue that it doesn't, but that is beside my point).

I'm not saying dictionaries aren't useful in discussions like this. nor am i saying that they hold no weight. i'm simply saying that words and language evolve, thus undermining the ultimate authority of dictionaries.

[Wake up CALL]

"I'm not saying dictionaries aren't useful in discussions like this. nor am i saying that they hold no weight. i'm simply saying that words and language evolve, thus undermining the ultimate authority of dictionaries."

No little ...... this time, are you proud of me? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

We seem to agree on the quote of yours I printed above, just disagree on the timeframe involved. Basically the current accepted definition of a sport seems to clearly include poker. Now if the term sport has evolved since Websters Unabridged Edition was last updated (I believe in 2002) then you would be correct. I just don't think theword sport has changed all that much in the last 18 months and what we have here are some people who wish to change the definition but not a large enough (or perhaps vocal enough) group to implement the change.

[FR_Mainiac]

I think reading this thread can official be considered an extreme endurance sport... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Bozeman]

Except that in any decent dictionary there are (among others) two definitions of sport, one which encompasses poker and one which does not. This reflects the differing uses of the word in the culture. And whether or not you call poker a sport depends on which one you find more palatable.

The dictionary does not resolve this dispute,
Craig

[ChipWrecked]

"...depends on what the meaning of is is." --Bill Clinton

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
Except that in any decent dictionary there are (among others) two definitions of sport, one which encompasses poker and one which does not. This reflects the differing uses of the word in the culture. And whether or not you call poker a sport depends on which one you find more palatable.

The dictionary does not resolve this dispute,
Craig

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting theory craig but I posted several dictionary definitions and researched many others. I did not see a single one that wouls exclude poker from being a sport, yet also include other so called sports. Please post a link to a "real" online dictionary if you have proof of your position.

[Bozeman]

From Merriam-Webster:

Sport
...
(1) physical activity engaged in for pleasure (2) : a particular activity (as an athletic game) so engaged in


Craig

[Wake up CALL]

This is the same source I used for a definition I posted. As I said this does not exclude poker. Thanks for the confirmation. Poker is an activity and does require physical movement either by the participant or the stand-in. It says nothing about strenous physical activity.

[rigoletto]

[ QUOTE ]
since when are dictionaries the ultimate souce for word definitions?

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you mean sauce! If so, I think it's all gravy!

[sachinag]

I've done this before with a bunch of people, and I'm convinced I'm right.

To be a sport, you must have:
1) An empirical winner (this cuts out ice skating, gymnastics, and ski jumping since they all use judges)
2) Physical activity (this cuts out chess, and anything else a computer can beat you at, including poker)

A few caveats: dancers, gymnasts, and ice skaters are still athletes based on the amount of physical activity. Also, I said computer, not robot. It's not entirely inconceivable that a robot could compete in any variety of sport. There's a soccer-playing robot out there.

Poker is a game. Of skill. Over the long run.

[Bozeman]

So sleeping is a physical activity for you because it involves breathing. I guess I should know better than to reply to argumentators.

[ChipWrecked]

Well, as long as this thread refuses to die:

How about bowling? Participants are often fata$$ beer-drinking smokers, indulging these habits during the game.
However, it is a physical activity with an empirical winner.

Sport?

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I should know better than to reply to argumentators.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shame on you for not figuring this out much sooner. As far as arguing, I simply stated my perspective, justified it and rebutted your arguemant. Hell if you need to be right so badly I give up, POKER IS NOT A SPORT. Now can we go outside and play some more?