20-200 Spread Limit Hand

[J.A.Sucker]

Here's an interesting hand that came up yesterday for me in a 20-200 spread limit game at Bay 101. FYI, the game has blinds of 10-20 (and 10 on the button). Betting is between 20 and 200 anytime.

UTG limps (uber-tricky player), UTG+1 makes it 220 to go. LP (super moron) makes it 420 to go. I have AcKc in BB.

All players have at least 2000 dollar stacks.

What should I do?

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
What should I do?

[/ QUOTE ]

Curse your bad timing and position, fold, and hope UTG limp re-raises to 620.

[offTopic]

I don't want to pollute this thread too much with my LL perspective /images/graemlins/smile.gif but I had a question about the raises - Is there a three-raise cap in this game, and if it's been raised $X, can the next raise only be from $X to $200? (I guess that was two questions...)

[Pot-A]

Seems hard to believe it's worth puttin' in $420 without AA when you've got only $40 of blind money. Fold.

[brad]

i have no clue but was just wondering how this game plays as far as reraising before the flop.

i mean, if its routine to max raise open (or max raise a single limper) , and routine to max reraise to get it heads up, then thats a lot different than if this is an atypical hand.

having said that u think utg had AA KK or AK? did u see his reaction to all this?

[Diplomat]

Ok -- what would you do if you called, UTG and the two other players called, and the flop came down 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif? What if UTG came over the top and one of the other players made it 820 and the flop came down the same way?

AKs is a drawing hand when the bets go this big. It's been over-quoted, but is so true -- sometimes even maniacs and fish get dealt KK.

Fold this hand like a road map and watch them go to town on each other.

-Diplomat

[elysium]

hi j.a.
you don't say anything about the original raiser, but if he's solid and wouldn't raise to isolate the tricky with less than KK in this type game, and that's possible, you should just call. but before just calling, you need a lot of playing experience against the original raiser and have an uber-type read. otherwise, go ahead and cap it.

[Clarkmeister]

With your position, I think you are in a raise or fold spot here. I'd raise the max, represent the big pair and force them to react to me, or I'd dump. Plain and simple with this structure.

[Ed S.]

I agree with Clark here. It's a raise or fold situation.
I would tend to raise here. What kind of player is the guy behind the "uber" guy? Is he of any concern. Or do you think he may be trying to get it heads up with the guy up front?


Ed S.

[J.A.Sucker]

There would be a bet & 3 raises. In this case, UTG limped, then somebody came over for a 200 raise, and somebody reraised for 200 more. This thing could be 820 to see the flop. This is very rare, BTW.

[J.A.Sucker]

If I come into the hand, then it's clear that I have a real hand, because, as Pot-A says, there's only 40 in blind money out there.

My options were all dubious, and here's why:

UTG's limp was very scary, and should be realized as such. There were three aggressive players on his left, and in his position, limp-reraising a big pair is the clear course of action. He may have AA/KK/QQ, and I'm either a coin flip (out of position) or a huge dog. This sucks. UTG+1's isolation raise indicates a big pair, but NOT AA or KK. I'm thinking something like TT or JJ. The other guy's raise to 420 was a sure big pair. Further, he's not going to lay down any big pair under any circumstances before the river in this hand. I need to hit to win, and I'm gonna have to pay for it.

I thought that the probability of this thing being 800 to see the flop was fairly high, regardless of if I call or raise coming in. If I call, I lose deception value later, but I may save some money if it's not reraised. Not a very good argument, though.

As it went down, I decided to fold. UTG also folded. UTG+1 called, flopped a set of T's and beat the dude's JJ. They went several bets on the flop and then JJ dude called down.

[J.A.Sucker]

Right, as always.

[J.A.Sucker]

Of course UTG+1 is trying isolate UTG, which isn't really a good idea, but that's his business. If I were headsup then I'd play it for sure. The moron reraising the pot really makes it tough for me to win without hitting the best hand, and so I folded.

[elysium]

hi j.a., hey ulysses
gee folding? here? i'd need better opponents than these before i layed down my AKs.

[J.A.Sucker]

Hi elysium,

The structure of this game really allows you to avoid any very slim situations. I posted this hand becasue EV-wise, there's probably little difference between calling, raising, and folding (though I think folding is slightly better). Regardless of any EV considerations, which are at best, slim, the variance is waaaaay higher if you play on.

As for the quality of opponents, UTG (who limped in) is very tough, and frankly, I'd just assume avoid playing out of position with him, even with AKs. If he reraises after limping, my hand is toast unless I catch a miracle. UTG+1 is fairly good, and quite aggressive. The moron is just that.

I just mucked it, and rooted for the moron to win the hand, so that he'd have more $$ to fling at the table later, preferably when I'm in a better spot. He did lose the hand, though. Oh well.

[elysium]

hi j.a.
.......rooting for the under-dog. most auspicious.

[Ray Zee]

ill put my foot in my mouth. i would reraise gladly here every time. you cant go folding this hand unless you believe the raiser has to have aces or kings. and big players dont play that way and stay in money for long. your hand is too big to even consider dumping. its not that you should play tight because the ante is small. you play the right cards to maximize your win. playing to cut down on fluctuations is real bad poker and likely to break any player.