Did I take my QcTc too far?

[Ulysses]

Very good $15-30 game. I'm running insanely good.

I have QcTc in the big blind. Someone limps. Relatively tight, straighforward, and slightly overaggressive player in EP raises. A couple of cold-callers. I call. 6 to the flop.

Flop Qs Jc 8h

I bet. Limper calls. Raiser raises (this indicates nothing - he autoraises after raising pre-flop). LP (very good player) cold-calls. Button (not very good) cold-calls. I 3-bet w/ my top pair + draws. Limper calls. PFR 4-bets (AQ or better). LP now says "OK, you guys want to gamble?" and 5-bets. I'm pretty sure he has either 9T or KT. Everyone calls. 5 to the turn.

Turn (Qs Jc 8h) 5c

I bet. Limper folds. PFR calls. LP raises. OK, it's 9T, not KT. Button cold-calls. I call. PFR calls.

Bet or check-call the turn?

[FishyWhale]

PFR 4-bets (AQ or better). LP now says "OK, you guys want to gamble?" and 5-bets. I'm pretty sure he has either 9T or KT.

What did you hope to gain by betting when you are positive that at least one of them has got you beat???

[elysium]

hi ulysses
bad pre-flop call. on the flop, i don't understand betting out like that. you have a weak button and a large field with a vulnerable hand. check and if the EP bets out, and gets it called to you, provided the UTG looks like he's calling or folding, call and let your call close the action. on the turn, you may be drawing dead, so again just check-call.

the pre-flop call wasn't terrible though because you may have wanted to keep busy while on the rush. but, even a rush isn't strong enough for this holding given the pre-flop action. you've got 2 solids in there ulysses. whew,.....those guys, you know what they're like. let em have the dang QT. it's no good anyway.

[Sooga]

You said you're running insanely good. 3-bet and then check raise the baby club river. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[cferejohn]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

You don't call a single small bet getting 12:1 with suited broadway cards? I think I call this every time with this many players.

[mikelow]

Absolutely. Why did you continue when your read on the flop was dead-on? My thinking is "it looks like 10-9 to me;" I would need a runner-runner full-house (66 to 1 against) or a backdoor non-nut flush draw. A nine is only a split at best. FOLD!

[B K]

You should check-call. Here's what happened... you overplayed the flop, you realized that you were beat, and the pot got really big. Somewhere between the flop action ending and the turn card coming out, you forgot everything that you learned from 3rd street. All you saw was that you picked up a 4 flush, but you have to remember that you're still beat at this point... unless it's two bets back to you on the turn, check and call. Do you HATE getting raised on the turn? Not necessarily... you have a clear call for one more bet... it's just not the best play. Don't worry... these guys will pay you off on the river.

If you think his PF call was bad, what would you suggest are good calling hands in BB with these many players in a raised pot?

[Philuva]

I think you overplayed it. You should have probably folded on the flop.

Given your flop call of the 5 bets, I would check the turn. It appears that you are beat in multiple spots right now and none of these hands are going to fold b/c the pot is too big, so your betting is not driving anyone away or cleaning up any outs for you.

I would read the flop 5-better for 9T, so you either need a club to maybe win or 9 to split the pot. I would like to get to the river as cheaply as possible.

[J.A.Sucker]

Once you bet out on the flop and are raised, and then cold-called by the good LP, (and overcalled by the button), then just try to see the hand as cheaply as possible. Your outs are to split, likely, though you do have a backdoor flush draw. Folding here isn't a good idea at all, especially in this game. However, raising is just as bad, IMO. Just call. Your "draws" are hardly anything to sneeze at.

As it went down, you're seeing the river. On the turn, you picked up an actual draw, but don't bet it out. You cannot win, and you aren't getting enough immediate value to bet it. In fact, check/calling might entice the limper to continue on. This can hardly be bad for you, since you're drawing for sure now.

In these wild games, I'd just as well assume putting in excess action where you only have one pair and a couple of crap draws.

This is just my opinion, but I'm Just Another Sucker.

[bruce]

Well, you're certainly going to win one big pot if you hit a club! I prefer to push edges when I am getting way the best of it.

[34TheTruth34]

bad pre-flop call.

the pre-flop call wasn't terrible though because you may have wanted to keep busy while on the rush.

but, even a rush isn't strong enough for this holding


Just when I think I've seen you give the worst preflop advice that is humanly possible, you make a post like this and totally blow me away...

[Sooga]

[ QUOTE ]

Just when I think I've seen you give the worst preflop advice that is humanly possible, you make a post like this and totally blow me away...

[/ QUOTE ]

Elysium.... just when I think you couldn't POSSIBLY, be any dumber.... you go and do something like this... and TOTALLY redeem yourself!

Anyway, I just had to get one of my favorite movie lines in there. But yea, how can you NOT call QcTc with a raiser and a couple limpers? Even 3-betting preflop isn't as huge a mistake as folding. Calling would be best, 3-betting would be a lot farther down, and folding would be way, way down on the list, just ahead of crumpling the cards up and sticking them in your mouth.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
You should check-call. Here's what happened... you overplayed the flop, you realized that you were beat, and the pot got really big. Somewhere between the flop action ending and the turn card coming out, you forgot everything that you learned from 3rd street.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's completely wrong. I didn't forget what I learned, I ignored it. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
All you saw was that you picked up a 4 flush, but you have to remember that you're still beat at this point... unless it's two bets back to you on the turn, check and call. Do you HATE getting raised on the turn? Not necessarily... you have a clear call for one more bet... it's just not the best play.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly right.

[ QUOTE ]
Don't worry... these guys will pay you off on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Boy, it's almost like you were sitting at the table. Nice analysis. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
You said you're running insanely good. 3-bet and then check raise the baby club river. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Others have posted some solid analysis of this hand, but you are the only one who got it right. Nice job! /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Absolutely. Why did you continue when your read on the flop was dead-on? My thinking is "it looks like 10-9 to me;" I would need a runner-runner full-house (66 to 1 against) or a backdoor non-nut flush draw. A nine is only a split at best. FOLD!

[/ QUOTE ]

When would you fold? While I agree I overplayed this hand, I don't see any point in the hand where it would be correct to fold.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn, you picked up an actual draw, but don't bet it out. You cannot win, and you aren't getting enough immediate value to bet it.

[/ QUOTE ]

After the hand, I thought that betting the turn was a really big mistake as well. And I still agree that it was a mistake. But I was a little surprised when I went to twodimes and checked out some scenarios. 4 of us are almost definitely going to see the river, maybe 5. Against a lot of probable lineups (9T, KK, Qx, KT for example), the turn bet is actually close to even money (and there are very possible lineups against which it is a value bet). Obviously, it's much better than that for 9T. What makes it a disastrous bet, though, is if one of these clowns made it to the turn w/ something like Ac9c and I'm drawing stone cold dead. So, definitely a mistake, but maybe not as terrible as I thought at first.

[Ulysses]

The river was Kc.

I bet. PFR folds. LP thought for a couple of seconds then made a crying call. Button insta-called and said "you need a flush to win, I have the big strGoddammit" as I turned over my hand.

[J.A.Sucker]

Betting the turn was a mistake, but not the big mistake in the hand, which was instigating mega action on the flop when you're drawing very slim.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Betting the turn was a mistake, but not the big mistake in the hand, which was instigating mega action on the flop when you're drawing very slim.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, yeah, yeah... You're right. Against the probable lineups that make me near even-money on the turn (after the 4th club), I'm a big dog on the flop. However, FWIW, I actually thought there was a pretty good chance I was ahead when I 3-bet the flop (and against this lineup, in that situation I probably am ahead the majority of times). The 4-bet cleared that up that misconception.

But really, the only question on the flop was whether I was going to turn this into a flush or full house. You should go re-read Sooga's response. I missed a clear 3-bet on the turn (which would have led to a 4-bet from the nuts, which I could have capped). Damn, that's 9 big bets I missed.

[elysium]

hi sooga
a lot of times, you want to be absolutely sure that you are right when you vociferously repudiate someone's opinion, particularly when the issue has been narrowed down to a specific delineated question with all the facts present.

you must be totally sure that you are right, and that the individual you are attempting to humiliate is glaringly wrong. and you must not try to hide anything that has already been presented for review and critical analysis, especially when it is the focal point of the debate. doing so can be a little embarrassing.

the deciding factor and main issue concerning whether or not to fold pre-flop has not been discussed by anyone other than ulysses. ulysses may as well have said, "a tight EP raiser has just been cold-called by a solid opponent. can i call with QT from the BB?" ulysses also says that prior to entering, he knows that there will be raising on the flop, making this a tough aggressive game. that is what is going on here. that is the focal point of this issue; QTs from the BB pre-flop after a tight EP raiser is cold-called by a solid opponent in a tough, aggressive game with a lot of raising. and yes sooga, you're entitled to your opinion only, if you're going to use it to humiliate another 2+2 er, all i ask is that you include along with your castigation, the important factors concerning whether or not to enter into the hand. if you fail to do so, or intentionally omit these important facts, someone other than yourself may bring them to your attention. thankfully ulysses took the time to do just that, so you're off the hook. all i ask is that the next time you critique one of my threads, kindly include one or two key considerations involving the hand rather than saying something taken from a reform school flick.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
ulysses also says that prior to entering, he knows that there will be raising on the flop, making this a tough aggressive game. that is what is going on here. that is the focal point of this issue; QTs from the BB pre-flop after a tight EP raiser is cold-called by a solid opponent in a tough, aggressive game with a lot of raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

A few points.

1) The game was aggressive, but definitely not tough.

2) In general, you're wrong about calling pre-flop. I think that's going to be a profitable call for most all players, and definitely a profitable call for me in this game.

3) Given the facts presented, everyone else may be wrong and you may be right about folding pre-flop. Why do I say that? Well, if overplayed to the extent that I overplayed my hand in this scenario, that QTs pre-flop call switches from profitable to not. So, given the specific post-flop play described here, folding QTs pre-flop is quite possibly the better move!

Having said all that, played even reasonably properly, this is a very clear pre-flop call. In this hand, I was up 5 racks in 5 hours and "opened things up a little" to put it lightly. Normally I'd play this hand better.

[Sooga]

[ QUOTE ]
hi sooga
a lot of times, you want to be absolutely sure that you are right when you vociferously repudiate someone's opinion, particularly when the issue has been narrowed down to a specific delineated question with all the facts present.

you must be totally sure that you are right, and that the individual you are attempting to humiliate is glaringly wrong. and you must not try to hide anything that has already been presented for review and critical analysis, especially when it is the focal point of the debate. doing so can be a little embarrassing.

the deciding factor and main issue concerning whether or not to fold pre-flop has not been discussed by anyone other than ulysses. ulysses may as well have said, "a tight EP raiser has just been cold-called by a solid opponent. can i call with QT from the BB?" ulysses also says that prior to entering, he knows that there will be raising on the flop, making this a tough aggressive game. that is what is going on here. that is the focal point of this issue; QTs from the BB pre-flop after a tight EP raiser is cold-called by a solid opponent in a tough, aggressive game with a lot of raising. and yes sooga, you're entitled to your opinion only, if you're going to use it to humiliate another 2+2 er, all i ask is that you include along with your castigation, the important factors concerning whether or not to enter into the hand. if you fail to do so, or intentionally omit these important facts, someone other than yourself may bring them to your attention. thankfully ulysses took the time to do just that, so you're off the hook. all i ask is that the next time you critique one of my threads, kindly include one or two key considerations involving the hand rather than saying something taken from a reform school flick.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa whoa whoa, back it up there. I didn't mean to 'humiliate' you. I just love 'Dumb & Dumber'.

[J.A.Sucker]

You're right. Next time, make sure you get it capped preflop and on all streets, since you know it's coming. /images/graemlins/smile.gif You maniac /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[elysium]

hi ulysses
right, you're running over the table. when you hit the fifth or sixth rack, that subtlely dawns on you. the other two solids say that there are two other solid players in the game. you're in a relative 3-way with the fish trapped in between, transients. let's see, you're approaching the 24 hr. mark, you look up and everyone has busted out, and suddenly all new faces, two of whom will be around a little longer than the fish. so they're tough. but their feet aren't gonna swell like yours have. you be through with them in about 12 hrs.

after they leave, you'll go take your men's room shower with paper towels and what little soaps left, hit for another 12, and call it two days. and free buffet.

QTs....whoa;....that one solids got......AJo; the other......T9s possible KTs. how hard did they hit the flop......phffft, total miss. i'm gonna 3-bet this thing and post it, watch that elysium throw a fit....mr. fold pre-flop.....my nothing hand is better than their nothing hand. i'll bet it blind. elysium hates that (hehehehe).

[angry young man]

so I say to myself "elsyium is always giving ridiculously weak tight advice, I bet he says to fold preflop." then I thought about it reading through the hand and thought "nah, not even he could suggest folding QTs 6 handed, from the big no less". proved me wrong. This is terrible advice. I can't imagine not calling this bet (from an overaggressive raiser with a couple cold callers for goodness sakes). The only reason I'd not bet the flop would be because I decided to check raise this time around. I don't like the guy's 3 bet with the very good player cold calling 2 but come'on, you've got to bet sometime. Still here are my favorite parts of this post:
on the turn, you may be drawing dead
yes you may be. most hands I play I may be drawing dead on the turn but the vast, vast majority of the time I'm not. You think it's likely that someone is on the A or K high backdoor flush draw AND someone is on KT? I'd assume someone is on KT but the flush not being good is ridiculous.

and of course the best part:

you may have wanted to keep busy while on the rush. but, even a rush isn't strong enough for this holding given the pre-flop action.

I'd assume that you were kidding but I read the rest of the post so I know better.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
let's see, you're approaching the 24 hr. mark, you look up and everyone has busted out, and suddenly all new faces, two of whom will be around a little longer than the fish. so they're tough. but their feet aren't gonna swell like yours have. you be through with them in about 12 hrs.

[/ QUOTE ]
Whoa. Tommy, Sucker and others can tell you that that is a very reasonable assumption to make about my session state in this hand. Nice read! Surprisingly, though, you're wrong. This was only a six-hour session - which happened to follow up a monster five-hour session a couple of days earlier. These big (relatively) quick wins are a hell of a lot more fun than the marathon sessions I often do!

[ QUOTE ]
and free buffet.

[/ QUOTE ]
I typically skip the breakfast food at the cardroom at the end of a session and instead head home and cook up some chorizo and eggs or head down to the brunch place for one of their special scrambles and a big side of bacon. The scrambles also come with a side of potato pancakes. Mmmmmmmm....

[ QUOTE ]
i'll bet it blind. elysium hates that (hehehehe).

[/ QUOTE ]
OK, elysium, now I'm gonna go out of my way to find a good dark-betting opportunity in my next session. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[34TheTruth34]

That's one of my all time favorites, too. I actually wanted to use that quote, but I didn't think anyone else would know what I was talking about.

-"What would you say the odds are?"

-"About a million to one"

-"SO YOU'RE TELLING ME THERE'S A CHANCE!!!"