No Limit Hold'em Tourny w/Rebuy Help

[TexasJ]

There is a tourny in which you get $300 in chips and it costs 50 to enter. You can re-buy as many times as you want in the first hour. You get 500 in chips and its another 20 dollars. At the end of the hour you pay another 20 and get 1000 in chips. What is the best way to play this kind of tourny. Play tight in the beginning and wait for no more rebuys? Bluff? Dont bluff?

[youtalkfunny]

1. Buy all the chips that they will allow you.

2. Bluffing is tougher when they can re-buy. It's more easily accomplished after the re-buy period is over.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

The best way to play is to play in whatever manner maximizes your chip EV. Put the chips in with the best of it, and fold if you're not getting positive equity out of the situation.

Then, take every rebuy for which you qualify, and take the addon no matter how many chips you have at the time.

The whole concept of playing loose or tight because of the rebuy or blind structure is an illusion. You play according to the opposition, in whatever manner gives you the highest EV. Figuring out exactly what to do can be very difficult. But there is no "philosophical" answer.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Question: Is it right to factor in the rebuy chips when looking at close decisions?

Example: In the last FW NLHE I played in about a month ago, I raised (pot size) 3 limpers from the SB w/ KK and got 3 callers. Flop comes A-x-x (350 or so in the pot) and I decide to go all-in and see if a weak A will fold. I wouldn't make this play if this wasn't the rebuy period, but my thinking is, I'm only risking 125 because I can replace 400, so in effect I'm getting almost 3-1 from the pot and 7-1 if I'm called by an A. I was also very confident I was the best player at *this* table.

Is there a serious flaw to my thinking?

[Greg (FossilMan)]

No Ace, even a weak one, is going to fold.

As such, you will fold the worse hands most of the time, and never fold the better hands. Check and call, or check and fold, as you feel the situation dictates. The only advantage to betting out is if you're otherwise going to check and fold, and your check might induce a bluff (that succeeds).

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

No Ace, even a weak one, is going to fold.

I was called by AQ. OK, bad example for what I was asking.

Hypothetically. I have Axs, flop comes with 2 of my suit, my opponent raises all-in. Total in the pot is 800 after his raise, I have 500. In a normal scenario I don't have odds to call with the flush draw. In the rebuy scenario I rebuy and have 400 even if I call and lose. Again, at *this* table I believe I am the best player. Am I making an error of logic to treat this as if I am risking only 100 to make 800?

[Bozeman]

Yes, there is, because rebuys cost money.

Craig

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

True, there is a monetary value on the rebuy, but that in and of itself doesn't mean that you play *exactly* as you would were there no rebuys.

"You lose your chips, you're out" is not equal to, "you lose your chips, you spend more money to stay in." For example, if the structure says you can rebuy with 200 or less and a beat takes you down to 225, it makes little sense to wait for a good hand with 225 when you can call the blind for 25 with any 2 cards, muck if you don't hit, and start the next hand with 400. Obviously, rebuys are of little value if your chances of making the money are slim to none, but if the rebuy increases the chance you make the money, then the potential rebuy does add some value to the call in my example. Since a tournament is a short-term snapshot, chance of gain vs. risk of ruin factors into the calculation, which is why Sklansky advises against making some plays that may be correct in a ring game. Obviously, the availability of the rebuy alters the risk of ruin part of the calculation.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

[ QUOTE ]
Hypothetically. I have Axs, flop comes with 2 of my suit, my opponent raises all-in. Total in the pot is 800 after his raise, I have 500. In a normal scenario I don't have odds to call with the flush draw. In the rebuy scenario I rebuy and have 400 even if I call and lose. Again, at *this* table I believe I am the best player. Am I making an error of logic to treat this as if I am risking only 100 to make 800?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, as was said already, the rebuy costs money. If we want to assume you're an "average" player, you should play like this is a cash game.

However, you're assumption is that you're a well above average player. That does make a difference. So, let's get into it.

Let's assume you're twice as good as average. In this event, to simplify things, we'll say that T400 (the double rebuy when you go broke) is worth $40 in front of an average player, but $80 in front of you.

If you fold, you have T500, and it's worth $100.

If you call and win, you have T1300, and it's worth $260.

If you call and lose, you rebuy for $40, and have T400 worth $80 (a net of $40).

So, folding leaves you at $100, and calling leaves you at $260 or $40. If you win 1/4 the time, this averages out to $95, which means you have to win a bit more than 1/4 of the time. If we do the math, you need to win about 27.3% of the time to break even here, expectation-wise.

Interestingly, if this were a cash game, calling 500 to win 1300 would mean you have to win about 38.5% of the time for the call to be break-even.

So, the better you are, the worse action you can fade, apparently. Though it seems counter-intuitive to say that you are twice as good as the field if you're putting your money in with the worst of it like this. ;-)

Of course, this wouldn't be true without the rebuy. If this is after the rebuy period, you don't have the chance to make $40 in equity through the rebuy. And it is this fact that allows you to call with the worst of it. If you fold, you lose a chance to make a good bet ($40 for T400), while if you call, you either win the pot, or lose the pot and get to make the second bet (rebuy).

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[ZManODS]

Texas, what casino is this tourney being played at? Sounds like Wed night Turning Stone.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Thanks, Greg.

[Legato]

[ QUOTE ]

Yes, as was said already, the rebuy costs money. If we want to assume you're an "average" player, you should play like this is a cash game.


[/ QUOTE ]

That is simply not correct. The tourney detailed above had a very special structure. The first 300 chips was much more expensive than the rebuys. The first chips cost $1 per 6 chips, while the rebuys were apparently $1 per 25 chips!

Because of this it is clearly not optimal to play like in a cashgame. Your aim should be to take shots even with rather bad odds to possibly win big pots. For example, calling several all ins with a medium pair is correct, since the cost of losing all your chips is so much smaller than the gain you make if you hit your set (since the price of buying new chips is much lower than the price that was paid for the chips you might gain).

[Greg (FossilMan)]

But I was replying to Kurn's post which was in reference to a different tournament with a different structure. In Kurn's tourney, the rebuy chips are cheaper, but only about 5% cheaper.

As for the original post, I suspect the discrepancy isn't as great as stated. It was posted to cost $50 for the first T300. I bet that's really $30 + $20 or $35 + $15, i.e., the $15-20 goes to the house, and the $30-35 to the prize pool. That still leaves a big discrepancy, but not the 4:1 differential you cite.

You can't include the house vig in your calculations here, or you'll be making a mistake. The average value of the chips is based upon the money in the prize pool, not the money in the till.

However, your basic point is correct. If there is a big discrepancy, then even an average player should be a bit more willing to risk chips than in a cash game.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Legato]

Sorry about that, you are absolutely right in both cases. You did reply to a post regarding another tournament structure, and yes, the $50 must have included a fee, sounds too strange otherwise.