My Own Little Profiling Scheme

As a general rule and except in unusual circumstances, I'm instituting a policy of giving my business to those convenience stores which appear to be American-owned rather than to those which appear to be owned by Middle-Easterners. (Interestingly, there are a great many Middle-Easterner-Owned convenience stores and motels in the US at present)


First off, I'd rather do business with American-owned businesses than with foreign-owned enterprises (all else being equal), and there is usually another convenience store just around the corner anyway. Secondly, I'd rather not give money to those who are more likely to be supporting terrorists (even indirectly). Third, I'd rather not give money to those who are statistically more likely to dislike or even hate us.


To those Middle-Eastern store owners who do not dislike us and who genuinely loathe terrorism, I can only say, sorry, and maybe it would help if you told everyone back home that teaching hatred of the US might not such a good idea after all. As a matter of fact, the US has done absolutely NOTHING to cause, say, the Saudis to hate us (unless saving them from the Butcher of Baghdad and giving them gazillions of $ for oil is grounds for hatred).


I just don't see why we should spend money where it has a greater chance of finding its way to those who would do the US harm, when there is usually an alternative right around the corner.

Also, and this is something I have noticed for many years, when I purchase sundries at Middle-Eastern owned stores I don't seem to get as friendly a "Thank you" as I do from American-owned stores. I don't think this is just my imagination--I have long sensed that many of these people weren't comfortable with me, or with other Americans, and even the "Thank you's" seemed often quite stiff and forced. Others I've spoken with have noticed this too. There may be many reasons for it. However, I like to feel that people genuinely appreciate my business, and when I don't feel that they do, I'm more likely to buy elsewhere.

As a general rule and except in unusual circumstances, I'm instituting a policy of giving my business to those banks which appear to be Jewish-owned rather than to those which appear to be owned by non-Jews. (Interestingly, there are a great many Gentile-owned banks and accounting firms in the US at present.)


First off, I'd rather do business with Jewish-owned businesses than with Gentile-owned enterprises (all else being equal), and there is usually another bank just around the corner anyway. Secondly, I'd rather not give money to those who are more likely to be supporting anti-semitism (even indirectly). Third, I'd rather not give money to those who are statistically more likely to dislike or even hate us.


To those non-Jewish bank owners who do not dislike us and who genuinely loathe anti-semitism, I can only say, sorry, and maybe it would help if you told everyone back home that teaching hatred of the jews might not be such a good idea after all. As a matter of fact, the jews have done absolutely NOTHING to cause, say, the Palestinians to hate us (unless insisting that they did not exist as a people and not allowing them to return to their homes is grounds for hatred).


I just don't see why we should spend money where it has a greater chance of finding its way to those who would do the jews harm, when there is usually an alternative right around the corner.


The above four paragraphs are the essence of racism and prejudice. I believe your paragraphs are as well.

Also, and this is something I have noticed for many years, when I take out a loan at Gentile- owned banks I don't seem to get as friendly a "Thank you" as I do from Jewish-owned banks. I don't think this is just my imagination--I have long sensed that many of these people weren't comfortable with me, or with other Jews, and even the "Thank you's" seemed often quite stiff and forced. Others I've spoken with have noticed this too. There may be many reasons for it. However, I like to feel that people genuinely appreciate my business, and when I don't feel that they do, I'm more likely to buy elsewhere.

Focus, starring William H. Macy and Laura Dern. It is about a man and his wife in America during WWII who are mistaken for Jews because of their names and appearance. It is very, very good.

I was so shocked by M's two posts above that I was trying to think of the most arresting manner in which I could express my dismay and disgust. In case anyone thinks otherwise, let me state that my two posts directly above are intended as sarcastic parody. I realize that the situations described in M's serious posts and my non-serious ones are not directly comparable.

I think it was pretty clear, you don't need to worry. If my response confused you I apologize.

You should see the movie because it is well done and addresses a lot of the issues you often talk about, not because I think you are ethnicly insensitive /images/smile.gif.


-g-

I posted my third post before I saw yours. I haven't seen Focus, I had heard it was quite good, especially Macy's performance (he's remarkable always, I think), I'll make it a point to see it.


After I posted, I was a bit worried someone might see my post without seeing M's and possibly think I was serious.


Dangerous times these are, in more ways than one.


Thanks, Glenn.

This is not a completely accurate way of looking at it, IMO, Andy. Mainly because I've noticed that other ethnic groups--say Asian, for instance--do genuinely seem damn glad to be getting my business in their small stores.

Non-Jews or Gentiles aren't the specific group which greatly hates Jews and wishes to kill Jews. That group is predominantly comprised of Arabs, and if you amended your statements above to refer to Arabs rather than non-Jews your words might actually make sense.

I responded to your post with my own post titled "Nonsense" before reading this branch of the thread. I knew it was sarcastic parody on your part but I am a bit of a stickler for reasonably comparable analogies and I didn't consider these to be reasonable comparisons. I am going away for a couple days so will be able to continue this discussion later with you if you would care to. I honestly don't think I am being bigoted in this approach, just rational. I believe this is true in part because of the degree of rampant, virulent anti-American sentiment amongst Arabs, and because of the fact that the terrorist threat is very real. I'm not advocating radical extremist measures; just deciding to employ my own free choice of who I prefer doing business with, all other things being equal. And it is undoubtedly true that some of the profits some of these convenience stores generate will somehow find its way back to fund Arab terrorists. If many Islamic "charities" do indeed contribute money to terrorist organizations (and they do), why should we assume that no Arab-owned convenience stores are doing likewise or contributing to some of these "charities.".

Now you've got me puzzled, Andy. Because I had decided that "racism" must be some abstract thing where you don't like a person, well, for some reason I don't understand. Specifically, Lol suggests I am "racist" against black people, without regard to any information about something black people actually do but - I can only guess - because their hair is curly, or something.


Now M has proposed this scheme, which seems accurate, wherein he has information that money given to a middle-eastern immigrant is more likley to support cultures and groups whose mission is to kill Americans. So, if thinking people from a certain country are more likely to want to kill Americans, or have sway on those who do, is racist, then whom must I think black people want to kill?


More specifically, if I think a black teenaged boy is more likely to want to kill me than a white teenaged boy - with no other information to go on - is that racist? And, therefore, when someobody accuses someone of racism against black people, are they implying the racist has some such structured belief or information about black people? Or are there, like different kinds of racism?


eLROY

If you can perform the amazing alchemy of deducing information about someone, such as the people with whom he is likely to associate, from his skin color and appearance, is that racist?


Or is it racist to be mad at a bunch of freaky moslems, stockpiling weapons, mobbing, and calling me, eLROY, and you, Andy, The Great Satan?


If so, if this is racism, then what is this other thing which supposedly exists, where you dislike somebody based on his appearance, where his appearance offers no information about anything but his genes?


Or, was it always the first thing, and the second thing was never presumed to exist. Being called a "racist," I would like to know what the heck people take themselves to mean!


eLROY

Dear M


It's so strange that you bring this up. I am quite fond of glittery things (jewelry). In Chicago we have a Jeweler's Show that runs in Rosement 4-5 times a year. The cheapest gold per gram is a Pakistani dealer, and I have purchased several gold chains from him. I was horrified when I heard of the round up the families that runs this chain, "Unique Gold", and deportation of more than 100 members that ran this business for reasons relating to terrorist financing. Here I was hoping the druggies in the world would realize that they ar inadvertently supporting the terrorist regimes of the world by buying their heroin and opium and it turns out that I, by indulging in my love for diamonds, which also turns out to be a major funding aspect in their terrorist bankroll, gold and other jewelry was as guilty as them.

While racial profiling is inherently wrong and I still refuse to engage in it, it makes one wonder where does it all end? I wish there were a more definitive way of establishing where the profits of your patronage to businesses are funneled to. It saddens me to think because I am vain enough to wear jewelry I may have helped fund these terrorists, no matter how unintentionally on my part.

Dear Pa and Ma (and also grandma Rachida, how is she?),


After 6 month in the US I must say that the Americans are great. I really love them. Sure, Sure, they seem overly friendly with strangers; talking in great detail about very private and personal things to people they have only met 5 min, and will never meet again. But that’s just the way they are, you have to get used to it.


I am not making much money from my store, I don’t know why. When an American comes in, I greet him with a reserved, but warm welcome, as we always did in Papa’s store. But they give me a greasy look and never come back. I have talked to other Moroccans and they all say the same thing: Americans just avoid stored owned by middle easterners, in fact they avoid speaking to us at all.


My trip to Chicago went very well. The only funny thing was in the airport. Security staff approached me, and I had a lengthy interview with them. They asked all sort of questions, If I go to the mosque, how often do I Pray etc etc. It was not very pleasant. They also search my luggage, messing all my clothes up. This happened going to Chicago and back also. I noticed they did that to all the Arab looking guys. I must say I was rather upset, but my neighbor Yussef told me that it’s ok. It’s just the way they work here. I gees I’ll get used to it.


So all in all, the Americans are really very nice, a lovable bunch. You really shouldn’t listen to your mad neighbor Mohamed who says that the Americans hate us, for in fact they really like all the Arabs, and are very friendly to them.


I love you.


Mourad

Andy,


Well put. But where can I find a German-English-Irish-Scots-American bank? Or convenience store?


I guess I'll just have to keep my money in cash and buy my food at the farmers' market. /images/smile.gif


BR

When you walk into a convenience store and notice a Middle-Eastern-looking person behind the counter, you immediatelyassume it's an "Arab-owned" establishment.


How about if the cashier is black? Is that establishment African-owned?


How about a very light-skinned white person? Is that store Skandinavian-owned?


My point being, someone's appearance, and even accent, is not enough to determine their nationality. Many Middle-Eastern-looking store owners are Americans, not Arabs as you suggest. (As an aside, calling all Middle-Eastern-looking people "Arabs" is akin to calling all Asian-appearing people "Chinese." It's quite unsophisticated and insensitive.) Many of the store owners in question are raising families and their kids attend American schools, play baseball, and eat at McDonald's. These families are not funneling money to bin Laden. In fact, probably one of the reasons they moved to America is to escape the oppression brought on by characters like bin Laden.


Please rethink your position on this issue. Do you really have enough evidence to make such a sweeping statement and boycott all stores that are owned by people that you label "Arab?" How about, instead, choosing to break the cycle of hatred and non-acceptance.


Thanks for listening.

As a general rule and except in unusual circumstances, I'm instituting a policy of giving my business to those farmers and business owners who appear to be American-owned rather than to those which appear to be owned by Japanese. (Interestingly, there are a great many American-owned farms and businesses in the US at present.)


First off, I'd rather do business with American-owned businesses than with Japanese-owned enterprises (all else being equal), and there is usually another produce stand just around the corner anyway. Secondly, I'd rather not give money to those who are more likely to be supporting the Japanese economy (even indirectly). Third, I'd rather not give money to those who are statistically more likely to support our enemy or even hate us.


To those Japanese business owners who do not dislike us and who genuinely loathe Japan, I can only say, sorry, and maybe it would help if you told everyone back home that teaching hatred of the Americans might not be such a good idea after all. As a matter of fact, the Americans have done absolutely NOTHING to cause, say, the increasing tension in Asia (unless insisting that the western way of life is superior to theirs is grounds for hatred).


I just don't see why we should spend money where it has a greater chance of finding its way to those who would do Americans harm, when there is usually an alternative right around the corner.


Note that this attitude was very real as recently as, well, two minutes ago or sooner. Been prevalant for years, and is propagated by people in this country who still don't realize that ancestory has nothing to do with nationality.

I know of no city on Earth that is such a melting pot, than even the dumbest citizen can't fairly accurately tell the national origin of another citizen.


What is the benefit to me, of whether an Arab community exists or not? That is an economics question, so I don't expect you to know the correct answer.


But, I will tell you the benefit of an Arab community existing is only small in the grand scheme, and so quickly turns negative if it gives cover to a single bad apple.


If Arabs want me to be indifferent to whether Arab-American communities exist or not, or even happy, they should take it upon themselves to exterminate the bad apples.


If these people really so sensitive, they should turn their backs on the community that cheered when our buildings went down, or take up arms against them, for their own good.


eLROY

When I first got to college in Oregon, a guy commented that I spoke english well, and that I must have been taking english lessons back where I'm from. He then asked where I was from, and I replied that I was from Hawaii. My parents? Hawaii. My grandparents? Hawaii. Just because I have black hair and slanted eyes, he assumed that I was not born in this country. turns out that my family immigrated a few years before his did, but my appearance spoke the whole truth to him. He naturally assumed that, because I looked asian, that I was here on a student visa and that my parents must own a electronics company back in Japan or Hong Kong or Taiwan.

I don't think this was malicious, but it speaks volumes about the attitudes that we have about those whom are different than us. That, in itself, if racism.

Racism doesn't have to mean that you want to take a pipe to the head of some guy just because he's a different color. It can be a lot more subtle than that.

I too will not have internet access for this weekend, but I think New Guy said a lot of things I would have said. Of course you can decide where to shop and give your business. I hate to see that decision being made on what I see as a bigoted approach, not a rational approach. Your assuming that a person who appears to be Arab to you in a convenience store is in sympathy and therefore contributing money to Arab terrorists. It's the same thing as assuming blacks are lazy or Jews are greedy or Americans are rich because some happen to be those things.


Good and bad people come in all sizes, shapes and colors and to treat all people of a certain group as you would the worst people of that group is to assure a very ugly world.

One problem with your scheme is that the negative consequences may be higher then the the gains you claim even using your own terms.


For instance, a few store owners that currently contribute to terrorist organizations, may have to cut back a little because of a lack of funds but a much larger set might begin contributing and much more than the others slowed down by, due to the climate of descrimination, if this scheme saw widespread use.


Another problem I have is with your use of the word "American". Just who do you consider to be American? I believe the vast majority of all the store owners are American, whatever their ethnic background might be.


D.

"M has proposed this scheme, which seems accurate, wherein he has information that money given to a middle-eastern immigrant is more likley to support cultures and groups whose mission is to kill Americans."


-I don't quite understand what you mean by his "scheme" being accurate. I didn't see anywhere in his post that he has information that money given to a middle-eastern immigrant is likely to end up in the hands of Al Qaeda. I did see him post that he assumes this.


"if I think a black teenaged boy is more likely to want to kill me than a white teenaged boy - with no other information to go on - is that racist?"


-Yes.


"And, therefore, when someobody accuses someone of racism against black people, are they implying the racist has some such structured belief or information about black people?"


-I can't speak for anyone else, but when I think someone is racist it is because I think they are treating a person as a member of a race, rather than as an individual, and they therefore assume some negative behavioral characteristic of that person is present in that person because of their race.

Let's consult your favorite dictionary again:


"Racism: a doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior; a policy, government, etc., based on such a doctrine; hatred or intolerance of another race or other races"


If I say the average black makes less money than the average white in the United States, this would not be a racist statement, because it is a verifiable fact. If I say they make less money because they are less intelligent, this is a racist statement because it assumes they are inferior by virtue or their race.


As for stockpiling weapons, no nation on earth has stockpiled as many weapons as The Great Satan has. And no nation has used as many weapons. And we usually reserve our greatest venom for people of different skin color than ours, who our leaders have always assumed are inferior to us.

Spoken like a true accountant /images/smile.gif

What's racist about correctly guessing you're foreign? The vast majority of people from the Pacific Rim - as he correctly guessed you to be - weren't brought up speaking English, or in British or American colonies!


This guy probably had met people who are from Asian countries, and who had learned to speak English very well very quickly, and was trying to to learn something about other cultures that, unlike ours, need to place value on learning foreign languages.


Moreover, having lived in California, I call only assume Oregon is similar, to the extent immigrants from different backgrounds choose to remain balkanized within their own communities - except to the extent they are in with the high-tech/phd crowd in silicon valley. Since you weren't some Chinatown person, and were more mainstream, he probably guessed you were Japanese or something. It was probably a good guess!


When some guy meets 100 different Asian people, and they all fit pretty neatly into one of three categories, it is not an attitude, it is a fact. The next Asian person he meets, under similar circumstances, is likely to have been put there by the same cause-and-effect chain. Would you take it so far as to say that if I met a person who spoke only Chinese, that it would be an "attitude" to assume he is from China?


Here's a guy who is good at statistics - who is not living his life in a fog - and you're saying there is something wrong with that. Here's a guy who is good at statistics, and you're calling it "racist." Which is why I can only shake my head when people say "racist," because it seems to border on statistical evidence the person speaing is an idiot, who has no idea what he is talking about!


eLROY

"I will tell you the benefit of an Arab community existing is only small in the grand scheme."


Whose grand scheme is this?


This is perhaps your clearest post yet.


Your first paragraph tells me how important it is to you to be able to assess the national origin of other citizen. If you wish to visit my factory, I will present 5 people to you; I'll wager you any amount of money you choose that you cannot accurrately tell the national origin (perhaps you can define "fairly accurately") of

three of them.


Your second paragraph tells me that you only care about the existence of people insofar as it is economically beneficial to you.


Your third paragraph tells me that for you, a single bad apple turns an entire civilization into a "negative."


Your use of the word "exterminate" tells me that you consider people who you view as enemies as no better than insects, to be exteriminated.


It is very clear to me now why you must of necessity resort to insults and profanity.

And a person born there is not foreign. A person who calls a Hawaiian foreign has no idea what he is talking about.

(perhaps you can define "fairly accurately")


enough to pinpoint which racial slur would apply

Are you saying, Andy, that I should be happier and happier as the population of the Earth increases - because I am happy more people are enjoying life? Because that is my attitude, whereas it is your attitude that if capitalism allows more poor people to subsist, that capitalism is robbing those people, and they would be better in some utopian system in which they wouldn't even have 50-cent/hour jobs, would starve, and would never be born in the first place.


So, yes, I am happy the more people are alive and happy, happy the greater the population, up until the point where an increased population creates a precisely counterbalancing increased camouflage for terrorists. And I used the term exterminate, because I consider religions and belief sets - memes - to be living things which take hold in men, like viruses.


So far as the "grand scheme," I am speaking of the scheme of which you are unaware, the great catallaxy, by which all men are made happy and their needs are met. As but a tiny agent, processing incentive signals in the catallaxy, it is hardly my job to elect or vote down entire communities. To that extent, M's scheme is preposterous. But it also not my role to invent or second-guess any such cultural habits, as an individual may adopt for such substitute reasons as drive us in a myriad of everyday decisions, the larger consequences of which we cannot possibly foresee or comprehend.


I don't measure my fellow citizen directly. Rather I leave that to God and the catallaxy channeling through me, by forming my culture, religions, beliefs, and behaviors. But then that would require a whole book to properly articulate exactly what I mean. To summarize, I don't know if my fellow citizen strives to be of explicit worth to me, that would be informationally inefficient, and as such totally unfeasible.


So far as visiting your factory, I will concede that it is not in my city. Not having had time to develop statistical samples of family origin and roots in the area, I would probably be shooting in the dark with many individuals. But if I lived in the community - or if you chose someone from the communities of each of the people whose national origins you challenged to be indentified - there would not be too much doubt.


And yes, a single poison pill can render worthless, even dangerous, an entire bottle of aspirin. And there is much precedent for this sorting and identification cost being reflected back to poorly-labeled structures, as a cost and incentive to clean up their own acts. Entire military platoons are punished for the misdeeds of a single member, to transfer the locus of discipline inside the platoon, where there is a lower information cost.


And I remember one time my whole Florida/cheapo apartment building got mad at me, because our mail carrier ran off without delivering the mail after I annoyed her. She was quoting some Bible thing about "da good gotta suffer wit' da bad" at the top of her lungs, in response to the shouting of the other tenants, which of course was redirected to me after she left. Can you guess whether this mail carrier was black, white, or Asian?


eLROY

Now, Andy, that's occupational profiling. Tsk, tsk.


BR

Suppose I take all the people in the world of Chinese ancestry. I would say, take one at random, he is probably at least 90% likely to be of Chinese nationality as well.


Okay, take the narrower pool of people of Chinese ancestry I might meet in San Francisco. If they only speak Chinese, I might consider them more likely to be of US nationality than if they didn't.


Why? Because, someone who speaks only Chinese, I can't imagine in what activity I would run into him if he didn't at least live in the US. Most Chinese in China who don't speak any English don't travel.


Most sort of international Chinese jet-setters speak English. Moreover, there hasn't been a major wave of Chinese-community immigrants to the US in, what, 100 years?


eLROY

I haven't read the other replies yet, I'm sure they will Bar-B-Q you, for all the right reasons.


I would like to address a side issue. Freedom of the people of this counrty to say what they think. That's right, I hate (fill in the blank) and here are my stupid reasons why (fill in the blank).


Yep, they should allow knishes, with little banner ads saying "Support the overthrow of the US government" "Lets hang all Arabs" and "Send all upfront small pair playing internet poker players to Norway."


I'm not in favor of not letting Canadians play poker by law. we are entitled to their money, no matter what the exchange rate. you may advocate lynching anyone dark-skin, but if your company has 20% minority positions across the board then my government should not have any problems with you.


You should be able to say "I'm stupid and here is what I think", without fear of government involvement.


You should be allowed to pick and choose between the different stupid theorys that are put forth to us.


you don't want to give your money to anyone for any stupid reason. Great, happy for you, but you refuse to give someone service for the same stupid reason, may the full force of the US Government fall on you.


MS Sunshine

Elroy, get your facts straight. First, we aren't talking about the whole world, we're talking about the US. your assumptions about the correlation between nationality and racial heritage are not valid here. For most of the world, yes, you can assume that someone who's nationality is country X likely has ancestral ties to the native people of that region. In the US, however, how can you do that? The native people are a tiny portion of our population.

As for your assumption that a Chinese only speaker in SF is american, please define american. You stated that the person did not speak any english. How can they be american? the ABC (american born chinese) all speak english as a factor of growing up here. the ones who don't speak english are likely to be immigrants, however they are far less likely to be citizens, precisely because they do not speak english. how you gonna pass the citizenship tests without speaking our language?


On a third note, most chinese immigration to the US has occured in the past 40 years. In fact, most chinese people who were here a hundred years ago went back to China or were kicked out by immigration laws. Only recently have the borders been opened up to allow those seeking refuge from communism in.

how am I foreign? unless you are native american(do you call them "injuns" or "redskins") I'm as foreign as you are.

"And I remember one time my whole Florida/cheapo apartment building got mad at me, because our mail carrier ran off without delivering the mail after I annoyed her"


-What was it you did that annoyed her?


"a single poison pill can render worthless, even dangerous, an entire bottle of aspirin."


-Should we have exterminated the German people because of Hitler? Should we have exterminated the Chinese people because of Mao? Should we have exterminated the population of the Soviet Union because of Stalin? Doesn't such an attitude make us the moral equivalents of Hitler, Mao and Stalin?


"She was quoting some Bible thing about "da good gotta suffer wit' da bad" at the top of her lungs, in response to the shouting of the other tenants, which of course was redirected to me after she left. Can you guess whether this mail carrier was black, white, or Asian?"


-What difference does it make whether she was black, white or Asian?


"Entire military platoons are punished for the misdeeds of a single member"


-Do you think society in general should adopt the discipline of a military platoon?


"it is your attitude that if capitalism allows more poor people to subsist, that capitalism is robbing those people, and they would be better in some utopian system in which they wouldn't even have 50-cent/hour jobs, would starve, and would never be born in the first place."


-It is my attitude that capitalism has, in addition to its many benefits, a dark side. Happiness is possible without capitalism. There are two ways to happiness: you can want a lot of things and get them, or you can want less and be satisfied with what you have. There were many non-capitalist societies where people were not unhappy. They were not utopian systems. They were societies that functioned, and functioned well.


It seems to me the capitalism is your religion.


What's the catallaxy?

M,


you are a complete fucking idiot.


with all due respect,

Boris

eLROY!


Can you tell me you can honestly tell the difference from appearence or accent the difference between an Iranian an Arab, a Turk and a Berber?


As far as Arab-Americans go, here's one example for you that I'm sure you'll like...


God forbid an Arab recieve millions of votes for President. Oh wait! One did in the last election. Ralph Nader. Lebonese American like millions of others.

I doubt I could name their countries, but I think I could do pretty well touching my finger to a spot on the globe where their parents lived. Based solely on appearance, including clothing but not including any setting, I think I would touch closer to Iran with the Iranian than with the Turk, for instance.


Now what the heck is a Berber? My guess is that would be close to a Turk. So far as Iranian vs. Arab, I'd have to go with my own definitions, as I imagine there are Arabs in Persia. Let's see, blue-collar Turks look like swarthy gypsies, Afghani's look less latino than Turks and more European, Persians have skinnier, pointier noses, Arabs have shaggier hair...


Yeah, I figured Nader was a ******** of some sort, but I couldn't make anything of it. I mean like, trying to piece together how Ralph Nader, as well as his followers, became so misguided, the implications of the name Nader, and his appearance, didn't offer many insights. I don't suspect he manifests too many recognizable Lebanese cultural traits in his political platform.


But, in any case, I don't have to know too much about Dead-Sea geography to know if somebody has it in for me. Usually, if some ordinary-looking black guy has changed is name to Mohammed, and is wearing one of those funny hats and some sleazy robe, chances are he fancies himself to be an enemy of my way of life.


eLROY

"Send all upfront small pair playing internet poker players to Norway."


why would we want to do that?? so we have to move to norway to make some dough? :-)


Pat

Racial slurs are not permitted in any context.

In this post, I blacked it out. If you would rather I delete the entire post, let me know.


Mat

"an enemy of my way of life."


eLROY, for some reaon, I don't think you need only look out for people of Middle Eastern descent.


Speaking of your way of life, I challenge you to set forth exactly what your way of life is. My challenge includes providing us with your real name, telling us what it is you do in your life, how you help others (not that this is a requirement, but I'd like to know if you think you do anything to help others), and how you see your role in American society. YOu might also include a brief list of your strong points and weak points. In other words, man, give an honest, accurate account of yourself.


For some reason, I doubt you'll take up this challenge. (And--don't aske me to go first, but I'll be glad to respond in kind.)


John

By way of life, I guess I meant the free-market system of coordinating division of labor and product consumption, rather than a more primitive clan or tribal system, or a system of thugs and religious hustlers and lords and harems, or assignment of property rights through favors within an incumbent political class. Some people want to tear down a sytem that can work for everybody, just because they are jealous of somebody with a prettier wife.


So far as what I do that pleases my fellow man, I know I am pleasing him when he hands me paper, or otherwise records IOU's which give me a claim on products he has produced by his own hand. I am not one of these egotists who needs wet little eyes looking up at me, or blowjobs, to have a self esteem. I know I can't make money without some total stranger making money, and that money makes his family happy.


So far as my good points, I guess it depends on your values. Nobody who has eaten a few meals I have prepared thinks there is a person on Earth with greater cooking talent, but I cook as rarely as possible lately. I guess my main good point, is that the world is wealthier with me in existence, than without me. Every girl I ever dated has listed making her laugh, and cooking well, as common good points. People say I am a good driver, but they get stressed when I park.


But it is pretty easy for me to figure out if I am doing the right thing when I make decisons from moment to moment. I think of what would my friends do who wear those WWJD bracelets, and I think what Coach Mac of the Promise Keepers would say to do, and I try to have a mission to live life in a certain way, where posting to this forum is one of my very few hedonistic activities. I honestly hope I can do more good someday, than that currently measured in my income!


Hmmm, the people in Bible-study groups always seemed to get a kick out of me. Oh, one funny thing, I used to think I was a great friend to some girls who were having relationship trouble. They'd come to my house, or talk to me for hours, and I'd give them all types of advice, usually siding with the guy, which is the perspective I offered. Then I'd send them off with instructions about how to be a better partner, and so forth.


More recently, I figured out the devious little monsters were usually just using hanging out with me to beat up on their boyfriends. So, I guess girls found me a "good" if unwitting tool to punish their unfaithful boyfriends, until I figured out what was going on. Whatever you are, those times you were made a sucker of tend to stand out in your mind! For example, if you own a good sandwich store, I will be a good customer!


So, anyway, I am a sucker for needy girls, and have been known to give money to strangers. Or, sometimes I used to - OKAY, I ERASED THIS PART - and make them feel better. The idea of young people in hospitals, or in long-term rehab liek fish otu of water, sometimes haunts me, and I have been kicked out of the hospital for refusing to get certified as a "candy striper," and let the bureacracy dicate to me who is lonely and who isn't.


So far as my larger "role in American society," I would say I do more than my 1/280-millionth share, but not much more. While your post/question in general seemed to be loaded with insinuations, or points which I probably missed or took wrong, the idea that I would have some sort of conscious "role in American society" is probably the most puzzling to me. I think American society is more robust than some tenuous patchwork of roles.


Finally, I am unwilling to give "an honest, accurate account" of myself, as people don't feel good when slapped with the kind of "honesty" (defeatist pessimism) you are probably fishing for. I know a lot of people here already don't get a warm, fuzzy feeling when I post, but it could be a lot worse. If I were to have some of the kind of fun you are suggesting, and be blunt, and even vivid, people would start to feel queasy about their own selves.


So if you are saying to paint an ugly picture of my life, or by association of life in general, I won't do it. I think it's a great country, and people find productive fulfilling roles for themselves that had never been invented before they came along. And they find people whose lives they give meaning to. So the most accurate thing I could say is, it's all fun, this system works, it works for me, so be optimistic!


So, in conclusion, I am a bleeding heart who makes a modest income trading futures and doing some other stuff, and spends all day worrying about the great issues, and challenges facing society, and why there is suffering, and what types of economic processes, and memes, can help people to be better and worse off. And I can only feel sorry for some idiot who changes his name to Mohammed, because he thinks the American Dream isn't for him.


eLROY

so if ralph nader is an arab from lebanon (descent), then does that mean hes neither christian nor jewish?


brad

eLROY,


Fair enough, and, no, I am not--or was not--fishing for anything. I was thinking of Thoreau when I asked if you would give an account of yourself, and your answer does justice to Thoreau's own "account" in the opening of Walden.


And, no, I was not suggesting that by painting an accurate picture of your life, that you would, therefore, be painting an "ugly" picture. How would I know?


As far as being blunt, well, I doubt you would really make many people feel queasy about their "selves." Maybe some ought to feel queasy, but they won't; and those that would, probably already do, but your words won't effect that.


Anyway, thanks; it seems you did the best you can--for now.


John

Boris,


Terrorism is not a minor problem, and support for terrorism is not a minor problem.


I am not going to facilitate financial support for terrorism (and by the way, financial support in the US for terrorism is more widespread than you might suspect, and guess who it comes from?)

Just a quick note, eLROY: My scheme, as you say, is preposterous--if I were to think that my sole participation in it will have much net effect. However, if many Americans were to apply it, it is quite certain that fundings for terrorism from within the USA would drop quite significantly.

I agree, but my point is that it is very rare that we find ourselves as the inventor of a broad social movement or cultural practice in which we participate. What are the odds? Usually, one that works, nobody thinks it up, it just sort of takes on a life of it's own. Usually, we just do as others do, because that's how it's done.


And so it is only viewed from the perspective that many people share similar beliefs and habits - rather than, as Andy suggested, that I am some egotist who singlehandedly measures the worth of communites - that it is not preposterous. So I meant it is preposterous if it is a lone individual's proud scheme, rather than a social phenomenon.


And yet, if a culture attaches stigmas to people who don't recycle, or who act as camouflage by not weeding terrorists out of their midst, Andy woud characterize that as a bunch of presumptuous individuals playing God, and judging one another. Whereas, in reality, it is he who would so arrogantly, in presuming his own superior wisdom, second-guess the evolved norms of the mob.


eLROY

Andy,


I am not assuming I would be contributing money to Arab terrorists when I buy in an Arab-owned convenience store--that would be illogical--rather, I am merely assuming that if I buy in ENOUGH Arab-owned convenience stores, I will eventually be providing money which will be used to fund terrorism--and I am assuming that there is a far higher incidence of terrorist-sympathizers amongst Arabs than amongst Americans. I just don't want to help them out in this direction.


What's more, it's NOT the same thing as categorizing blacks as lazy or any other classic stereotyping, because it is TRUE that there is much anti-American sentiment amongst Arabs and it is TRUE that most terrorists and terrorist-sympathizers are Arabs.


Consider that 1/3 of the Saudi school curriculum consists of Wahhabism, a virulently anti-Western form of fundamentalistic Islam, and also consider that of the 40,000-45,000 Madrassas (religious schools) in Pakistan, some 6,000 of these religious schools teach outright hatred of America. No wonder (and tragically) that so many young Arabs are ill-disposed towards us, even who are far removed from the Palestinian/Israeli issues. But the threats to us are very real, very dangerous, and we haven't seen the worst yet in all likelihood. So I'll be damned if I let my $ be channelled towards anti-US terrorism, even indirectly, and even if it means shunning trade with many reasonable, decent Arabs. There are simply TOO MANY who are not reasonable, and are violently disposed towards us or are in sympathy with those who are. They are not a very small percentage but are rather a very significant percentage, and are great in raw numbers. This isn't a stereotype but a fact.

Well, the idea isn't original with me, but at least I came up with it on my own. Shortly after I did so (a month or so ago), I mentioned it to an older gentleman from Texas who remarked that he had been doing just that for years already.

AF: "I didn't see anywhere in his post that he has information that money given to a middle-eastern immigrant is likely to end up in the hands of Al Qaeda. I did see him post that he assumes this."


M: I think we would have less misunderstandings if you were not occasionally less than precise in reading what I write, Andy. I certainly DON'T think this, nor did I write it. As an exercise in accurate reading comprehension and logic, I'll let you reread my post and see if you still think I said this (or even anything that means this). No offense meant but I recall at least one other difference we had which was later found to be due to a similar type of misunderstanding.

Sorry for the tone of the above Andy but I am at times easily frustrated. I don't think it LIKELY that any one shopkeeper I do business will contribute to al Qaeda, but I do think it certain that doing business with LOTS and LOTS of them will contribute (perhaps indirectly) to the support of anti-US terrorist activities.

It is incredible that M & Elroy can not be swayed when they're wrong. First off, Elroy's snippety little "All the native got blue eyes?" *NM* message was blissfully ignorant for someone who lauds statistics. Let's see: 2d was born in Hawaii. Hawaii achieved statehood in 1959 (forgive me if I'm off). I'd say, with 95% certainty, that 2d was born after 1959. For God's sake, America is such a a progressive country, nationality is as much a voluntary identity as it is a mark of birthplace, that I accept 2d's American-ess just by his profound belief in the practices/freedom that are inherent to our great country, BUT ELROY YOU PHUCKIN' MORON HE IS AMERICAN ANYWAY UNTIL HE RENOUNCES HIS CITIZENSHIP, FOR CRIPES SAKE!


And on to M's response to Boris' eloquently simplicity, it reminds me of a scene from "This is Spinal Tap." Nigel Tufnel (Christopher Guest) shows Marty DiBergi (Rob Reiner) all of his guitars and amps. There's a huge amp on which the control buttons go to 11. Nigel is really excited about them, and Marty's friggin' dumbfounded. He asks Nigel something to the effect of 'Why do they go eleven? Wouldn't they be just as loud if they went to ten.'


Nigel is stunned, his jaw just drops. He thinks for ten seconds, and says, "But these go to eleven."


DanS

Well I'm stunned at all the people who don't get it.


The prevalence of strong anti-American sentiment amongst Arabs is not nearly as low as most of you think. The dangers of terrorism are considerably greater than most of you think. The number of people who incorrectly think I'm stereotyping all Arabs is higher than I would have predicted.


Why do so many seem to think that I (or others) should provide profit to those who indisputably have the greatest likelihood of channeling it to our greatest enemies? You guys won't really wake up 'til they nuke Chicago or something.

1)

'What's more, it's NOT the same thing as categorizing blacks as lazy or any other classic stereotyping, because it is TRUE that there is much anti-American sentiment amongst Arabs and it is TRUE that most terrorists and terrorist-sympathizers are Arabs. '


2)

well, its a fact that blacks commit far more crimes than whites. so if you interact with enough of them youll greatly increase your risk of being a victim of crime.


looks like exactly the same logic to me, but i think you would only agree with one of the above.


brad

Your second statement might be true also (in an extremely broad sense) but there may be other variables involved which are much more important. For instance, are you interacting with them, say, over lunch in an office park, or are you wandering the streets of the low-income housing projects on a Saturday night.

"As a matter of fact, the US has done absolutely NOTHING to cause, say, the Saudis to hate us "


what a blind, american, nationalistic, amerocentric view of the world. what makes you think that Saudis don't hate us? why are all the people in an arbitrary geographic location grouped together to have their opinions speculated on as a group? just how do you go about determining which convenience store is 'American-owned' vs. 'Middle-eastern' owned?

"And it is undoubtedly true that some of the profits some of these convenience stores generate will somehow find its way back to fund Arab terrorists. If many Islamic "charities" do indeed contribute money to terrorist organizations (and they do), why should we assume that no Arab-owned convenience stores are doing likewise or contributing to some of these "charities."


you have no basis for this claim other than a blind faith in pop media, a bent toward racial fear/ostracization, and an outdated nationalistic view of the ethical world.

but here in chicago, we have too many different ethnic backgrounds that are so closely mixed as to be definitive by appearance alone. i certainly can't tell what national heritage somebody has just by looking at them. then again, maybe im dumb. or maybe it doesn't matter, so i never bothered to learn such a mode of racism.

"because it is TRUE that there is much anti-American sentiment amongst Arabs and it is TRUE that most terrorists and terrorist-sympathizers are Arabs"


how on earth do you know this? it is impossible for you know with any accuracy the truth about these statistics. are you projecting your fears onto societal groups?


define terrorist.

still haven't broken from a stereotype. what's the difference?

The factoid about 6,000 out of 40,000 or 45,000 madrassas (religious schools) in Pakistan teaching hatred of America is straight from the front page of USA Today (newspaper) (a few months ago, I believe). I forget exactly where the factoid about the 1/3 of the curriculum in Saudi schools being comprised of Wahabbism is from, but it was from an equally reputable and well-known mainstream source (a bit longer ago).


If you were to do a bit more reading, you too might know that the other facts I quoted which you question are true as well.


An off-the-cuff, brief definition of terrorism: Attacking innocent, uninvolved persons in order to make a political point. In other words, if you hate, say, G.W. Bush, and you were to kill some little girl and her family in order to express your loathing for him and to draw attention to your gripes, you would be a terrorist.

I guess the same could be said for my belief that Republicans tend to contribute more money to conservative causes than do Democrats. Damn that pop media--fooled again.

No, I DO think that many but not all Saudis hate us--I just don't think most of those who do have truly rational reasons for it. By the way I don't consider religious fanaticism a rational reason. We have done nothing TO the Saudis but we have done a lot FOR them. (However, maybe they felt it 'humiliating' that they were not in a position to defend themselves against the impending steam-roller of Saddam's forces and had to rely on us;-)

"The factoid about 6,000 out of 40,000 or 45,000 madrassas (religious schools) in Pakistan teaching hatred of America is straight from the front page of USA Today (newspaper) (a few months ago, I believe). I forget exactly where the factoid about the 1/3 of the curriculum in Saudi schools being comprised of Wahabbism is from, but it was from an equally reputable and well-known mainstream source (a bit longer ago).


If you were to do a bit more reading, you too might know that the other facts I quoted which you question are true as well"


none of this has anything to with the facts that you state. also, 6000/40000 is not a majority.


if i were to do a bit more reading, i would read severely biased information given from 3rd, 4th, or 5th generation sources regarding highly speculative numbers. i again challenge you to give specific sources for your information concerning the statistics i originally questioned.


"An off-the-cuff, brief definition of terrorism: Attacking innocent, uninvolved persons in order to make a political point."


with this definition in mind please prove that: "it is TRUE that most terrorists and terrorist-sympathizers are Arabs"


sometimes i don't think you read the posts you respond to. i said nothing about wahabbism or madrassas. why did you feel the need to defend that statistic?

it is not even a close analogy between the two. republicans (a political group) have political definition. drawing conclusions from that political definition about political tendencies is valid. drawing political conclusions about a business that employs someone with a specific skin tone is NOT valid. it is racist.

"I just don't think most of those who do have truly rational reasons for it"


can there ever be a truly rational reason for hate? why are those that do hate us grouped in with those that don't? and treated the same way?

baggins:


6,000 out of 40/000 is indeed not a majority, but I never claimed it was a majority. All that is necessary for my point to be true is that it constitute a significant percentage which translates to huge numbers in real terms. Since we are talking about whether or not large numbers of Arabs hate America, I should think that this factoid supports rather than refutes this claim.


As for proving that most terrorists are Arabs, I suggest that a count of various terrorist attacks in recent years will indeed show that this is true. Except for the occasional loony like McVeigh or odd cult like Aum Shirinkyo (spelling?), almost all of the terrorist attacks I've read about in recent years were committed by Arabs/Muslims/Middle-Easterners. Also, it is almost entirely from these areas that groups which proudly proclaim themselves to be terrorist organizations spring: Abu Nidal, Black September, Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, Islamic Jihad, and a large

host of others. I mean c'mon, this isn't strereotyping, it's just recognizing the facts. Of all the terrorist organizations in the world only a very few are not Islamic/Arab/Middle-Eastern. The IRA and Aum Shirinkyo are exceptions. This is not guesswork. Jeez, I'm surprised you seem to not be aware of this. Why don't you do a little searching on Google and see how long a list of terrorist organizations you can come up with and where they are from.

No, I'm not talking about who they employ; I'm talking about who owns the businesses. And Middle-Eastern convenience store ownership in the USA is high today (motels too--again, these are factoids from USA Today newspaper).


Just as Republicans contribute more to conservative causes, Muslims contribute more to Islamic causes,and a major thread/cause today in Middle-Eastern style Islam is hatred of the West and terrorism. It's not a majority thread, but it is a major thread.

Only because this is the group which is ATTACKING us. It wouldn't matter so much

if they just hated us and kept it to themselves,or said they hated us but took no violent actions against us. However when their hatred leads to violent aggression against us we must defend vigorously.


I'd like to continue this discussion, but now I must go out for a walk,and then to the cardroom to beat some politically correct nitwits and some bigoted nitwits at poker.

note though that US islamic groups have had assets frozen, and that blacks commit crimes (whatever the reason) at a tremendously higher rate.


brad

"By way of life, I guess I meant the free-market system of coordinating division of labor and product consumption, ..."


I wonder what on earth that is supposed to mean. It may qualify as automatic writing but it is balderdash in any kind of science you can think of. (Well, maybe not Scientology.)


"Some people want to tear down a sytem that can work for everybody, just because they are jealous of somebody with a prettier wife."


Careful! You may be projecting.


"I know I can't make money without some total stranger making money."


In other words, economics as a forced non-zero-sum game. You must be some kind of stockbroker who believes his own spiel. Just a guess.


"I am a bleeding heart who makes a modest income trading futures"


Close enough!


"But it is pretty easy for me to figure out if I am doing the right thing when I make decisons from moment to moment. I think of what would my friends do who wear those WWJD bracelets, and I think what Coach Mac of the Promise Keepers would say to do. ...the people in Bible-study groups always seemed to get a kick out of me. "


Translation : A What-Would-Jesus-Do freak who wants to pass as a worldly fella. Nice try. (My humble suggestion would be, as the Jesus freaks themeselves would say, to accept who you are first and take it from there.)


"I used to think I was a great friend to some girls who were having relationship trouble."


Uh oh.


"They'd come to my house, or talk to me for hours, and I'd give them all types of advice ..."


I'm sure.


"...Then I'd send them off with instructions about how to be a better partner."


Instructions, is it?


"So, anyway, I am a sucker for needy girls, and have been known to give money to strangers."


I know exactly what you mean...


"the most accurate thing I could say is, it's all fun, this system works, it works for me, so be optimistic!"


Uh huh. It works for me --> it should be working for everyone. Great. (And to think that I come to this forum to get better in serious poker.)


I am not saying that the U.S. isn't a terririfc place, mind you. I'm just saying ..I like how you're thinking, stranger, have a seat.


"And I can only feel sorry for some idiot who changes his name to Mohammed, because he thinks the American Dream isn't for him."


You should see what them other fellas did. At home too.


"If I were to be blunt, and even vivid, people would start to feel queasy about their own selves."


Feel free to indulge us. I'll have the barf bag handy.


--Cyrus


Expert CV Demolisher

That's my point (what's the difference? hint: not a rhetorical question)

You said, "I'd rather not give money to those who are more likely to be supporting terrorists." Since you spoke of Middle Easterners, I took that to mean Palestinian terrorists. I don't think either of us have any doubt that there's a linkage between the Palestinian terrorist organizations and Al Qaeda. Since you also talked about the money finding it's way into the hands of people who would do the U.S. harm, this also made me think of Al Qaeda.


Also, I was responding to a statement of eLROY's in which he said he had evidence, and I said I didn't see that you said you had evidence.


Anyway, no need to apologize, I found absolutely nothing to apologize for in your tone, but please do tell me where I have misread or misinterpreted what you said. I probably won't scroll down this far again, so if you care to respond, please start a new thread.

i don't know. you were the one who stated them to be variables which may be important.

"almost all of the terrorist attacks I've read about in recent years were committed by Arabs/Muslims/Middle-Easterners"


i don't necessarily disagree with you. but i think that, just as there is a significant number but not majority of Middle Easterners who hate us, there is a significant number of non-Middle-Eastern terrorist organizations (by you definition of terrorist) that represent a threat not to be ignored on the terrorism defense side of things. i also question the validity of the data which you quote. i don't question your varacity, but i don't believe that we know nearly all there is to know about the truth behind most acts of terrorism that occur in this world, and i wonder how many of them get pinned on Middle Eastern organizations that had nothing to do with it. my point in all of this is that perhaps we are quite a bit more in the dark regarding terrorism and all that goes on globally than local news makes us believe. i don't think that our public media is an adequate source of comprehensive truth, therefore i distrust the conclusions we make based on the information we get from it. all this is to say that we may be coming down a bit too harshly on a culture and a people-group that probably doesn't deserve it. perhaps we should suspend judgement and find better ways to make this a safer, non-terrorized world than simply boycotting Middle-Eastern-run establishments like the local Kwik E Mart.

i still don't think the link between your perception of just who owns the businesses in question and their link to Islam, and in turn their Islamic link to non-Muslim, Western hate groups is not strong enough to make the jump to a complete boycott.


i keep wondering in all of this just what you base ownership status on. how can you, the average joe customer, know who owns the place? what method of determining this have you come up with? im not assuming you have a flawed method, just amazed that you have one that is airtight enough to make the leap to a complete boycott.

glad to see that you don't mind taking $$ from whoever. by the logic of your original post, would it be safe to assume that you will prefer to play in a game with Middle Easterners as opposed to non-Middle Easterners? as this would allow you a greater chance to make a significant dent in the bankroll of terrorist groups globally.

all right you do have a number of good points in your post. However as for terrorist acts getting pinned on Arabs who don't deserve it, how about all of those terrorist acts which they themselves have proudly claimed credit for--and that's a LOT.

yep that would be great, especially if I really could make a dent myself that way;-)_-- but unfortunately their religioun prohibits gambling. Any you see at the casino playing aren't really Muslims or they are the worst of sinners.

In some of the stores near where I live, when every person I have ever seen behind the register or taking care of the store is from a Middle-Eastern country, I can be reasonably sure it's Middle-Easterner owned. Likewise when you go into a Chinese restaurant and see ALL Asians working, you can bet it's probably Asian-owned, too, although it just might not be;-)

as for those, hey, they suck. i tend to be skeptical about some of those, too, though. perhaps it is easy to submit a false 'claim' to global media. claims from a fictitious group. its probably too paranoid a skepticism, but it IS possible. true, though. those are horrendous crimes, and there are a lot of them.

but aren't those people americans? they live and work here.

so you can distinguish in that regard, between Muslim Middle-Easterners, and Non-Muslim Middle-Easterners. ok, i guess.