Diary of an online poker player #3

[GrinningBuddha]

Day 22

Ok, Neteller has their new information, so we’ll see how that works out for me. In theory, I should be ready to go by Wednesdayish, at which point I plan to cash out my bonus and play on with my deposit. Interesting thing about the deposit screen on Partypoker. If you don’t successfully complete the transaction, the deposit will reset itself to $100, regardless of how much you tried to deposit previously. I accomplished two things when depositing: I discovered that only one of my two credit cards will accept gaming transactions, and I managed to score myself the full deposit bonus of $50. I had only meant to deposit $50, but after a little quick rationalization with the wife, it was all good. $100 will go that much farther than $75 in the micro-limits.

I’ve given some thought as to when I should think about moving up. There have been some good posts here in the past regarding the topic. To be honest, I can’t see the higher limits being a whole lot different than the .50/1.00 games I’ve been playing. They’ve ranged from loose aggressive to weak-tight. Average pots have ranged from 11 BB to 5 BB. 5! The opportunities to steal are rare, but they are there. I have to say, semi-bluffing to win $1.75 isn’t the most fulfilling thing in the world, but I’ll take it when I can get it. I don’t have any example of those today, but I’ll see if I can dig some up if I can score some more.

Two hands presented for your perusal:

Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif in the BB. 7 limpers and I get a free play. Flop comes 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Hmmm. Top pair and the 3rd nut flush draw. What to do, what to do…

I decide to bet out and see what happens. I get calls from two EP players and one MP. The turn shows the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Now I have a problem. If I’m up against the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif, I’m drawing to 3 outs. If the K /images/graemlins/heart.gif, I’ll get a call here, and I won’t want to see a heart. At this point, I’m not sure if I want a heart or not, but I’m leaning towards yes. With all the Ace chasers at these limits, I might be in trouble, but I bet the turn again to shoo away any Kings or Jacks, and I lose the MP player.

The river brings the 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif. This changes nothing, so I give it one more shot on the river. Is this a better place to check? Who am I going to get calls from?

Well specifically, I got a call from K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif. Thoughts on the hand?

Hand 2:

I get Q /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in MP. 3 limpers to me and I raise. Folded to the BB who calls, as do the limpers.

Flop comes 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Nifty. I bet, the 3 limpers call.

Turn is Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif. Nifty. I bet, only UTG+1 calls.

River is the 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. Hmmm. UTG+1 checks. How many people bet here? I feel the number of times that I’m shown a 6 or two spades will be outweighed by the times I get calls from two pair or worse, so I bet. UTG+1 raises, and shows A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. No happy ending this time.

Was my thinking correct on this hand, specifically on the river? If I can’t bet a set on the river into an unlikely straight or flush, where CAN I bet it? /images/graemlins/blush.gif

My stats for the first 3 days:

hours Won/lost
#1: 4 $5
#2: 4 $-12
#3: 2 $24.75

Total winnings: $17.75 over 10 hours.

Nothing stellar, but a solid 1.8 BB/hr. Perhaps 1 of those hours were spent at two tables, and even that wasn't planned. I feel more comfortable at one table for now, just to get a feel of the players. 10 hours hardly constitutes an appropriate sample size, but things continue to truck along.

Looking at the stats, I can’t help but think about the concept of fulcrum hands. These are the hands that define your sessions. Last night, my fulcrum hand was playing T9o from the BB after a loose raise and 4 cold-callers. A marginal call perhaps, but one I felt was correct given the game conditions. The flop came 7, 8, J; turn was a K (lots of action there), and the river brought a 5 which completed the runner-runner flush. A 32 BB pot came sliding my way, helping me dig my way out of a –15 BB hole. If the hand slides to someone else, my –15 BB hole becomes a –21 BB hole instead. It’s these fulcrum hands that determine whether your losing streak continues or turns around with authority. I just wish I knew how to move the fulcrum to my side more often! /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Until next time…

[GrinningBuddha]

Curses. The edit function has foiled me. Here are the links to previous entries:

Part 2 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=311729&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=365&fpart=1)

Part 1 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=303185&page=3&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=365&fpart=1)

Prelude (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=301729&page=2&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=365&fpart=1)

[CMangano]

Hand 1 is tough, and these are the types of hands that get me into trouble. You flopped top pair with a good kicker. But there is a 3 flush on the board and you hold the Q of that suit. I think in this spot I would either check call or check fold, but others will probably disagree. There is a good chance someone has the A/images/graemlins/heart.gif or the K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, if someone hasn't already made a flush. I think I would choose to save my money for a better spot.

Hand 2 that river card is the worst possible card for you. Not only does it put a 4 straight on the board, but also a 3 flush. However, you are not gonna fold at this point. I think this is one of the few times I woud check call the river. Here is my thinking on that.

If you bet out and your hand is good you probably aren't gonna get any callers, as they will fear a flush or a straight as well. If your hand isn't good, you're probably gonna get raised. But, if your hand is good and you check, you might get someone who would have folded to attempt a bluff, thus gaining you one extra big bet.

As for that T9o fulcrum hand you posted, I would fold in that spot but call if it was suited.

[Punker]

"I’ve given some thought as to when I should think about moving up."

If you are playing at Party, you should do it as soon as possible. Of the major sites, Party has the highest rake structure for 0.5-1.00. Its not clear whether you are playing one game or two, but for arguments sake, we will say you are playing 1 game at a time. Over the course of 10 hours, you might see 650 hands, winning perhaps 50-60 of them. On many of them, you will be paying 0.25 more rake than other sites. Lets say, on 2/3 of them.

Paying 0.25 extra rake on 40 of your winning hands is a $10 beat (compared to your overall win of $17.75). Funny how that extra quarter suddenly starts to become money.

[GrinningBuddha]

This point has been brought up before, but given the stakes, I hadn't really paid much heed to it. I had wanted to start low to gain some confidence with the whole online thing and build up a bit of a buffer before moving up.

However, if I were to move to $1-$2, I'd be playing with about 50 big bets, which is the same as starting on the 10-20 play tables with $1000. I feel confident that I'd have to take some serious beats to tap out with that. Besides, it's always replaceable. Hmmm...

Thanks for the input Punker, I'll give 1-2 a try and see how it goes.

[ReRaise]

Hey Buddah. After reading your prelude, and reading Davidross' posts, i decided to jump into the micro limit tables at party also. I got that 50% bonus about a day before it expired. Unfortunatly, it cost me a $9 fee from net teller, because i had to get the money from my bank, to net teller, and to party all before the deadline. I was lucky to hit a rush for my first few days at .50/1.00, and Im up about $100 over about 17 hours. It works out to about 5.8 bb per hour... so I dont quite expect it to last, but im happy about getting paid a $50 bonus just to win $100 more playing. So an initial $100 deposit has grown to a $250 bankroll.

With my success Im itching to go up to 1/2, but I had planed on waiting until the bankroll was at 300. Pilots say: "Plan the flight, fly the plan." It helps them to stay out of trouble. So I'll wait... at this rate it should only take a few more days.

[Punker]

Rather than jumping up before you are properly bankrolled (and 50 BB is very far from properly bankrolled), I would advise switching your money back to NETeller, then jamming over to Paradise to play 0.5-1 (and receiving the associated deposit bonus). Despite their recent decline, they still have plenty of good 0.5-1 action.

[archmagi]

When to go up? When you feel comfortable with your bankroll so that you don't play scared money. Also with beating the games. In some sites the game can get considerably tighter at 1/2 rather than 0.5/1, while at some sites it's the same game. I remember a few weeks back I saw some 1/2 tables at Paradise with 20-25% player/flops.
Hand 1: You're trying to bet to see where you're at with 7 limpers and a 3 flush on the flop? And then again after the A on the turn? I agree with CMangano, save your money for a better spot. People can chase with almost anything at micro limits, but you can't beat anything other than a pair of 7's (or JTo). 7 limpers is a bit too large a field to semi-bluff, but still you probably made an A fold after the flop, but didn't help at athe end. You lost to a bigger kicker, who had no business staying that long, but was he just a very bad player or did he put you on a semi-bluff?
Hand 2: Tough, depends on the opposition. The field is usually too large in these small limits, and a lot of Ax are played. A single 6 makes a straight, and I can see a 0.5/1 player staying till the end with A6, let alone A3. Difficult chioce at the river, but considering this is small limit, and the guy has been hanging on till the end, I would probably check/call (this might not be the right play, it's what I would do). I would probably be too much in love with my trips to part with them.

Good luck.

[GrinningBuddha]

7 limpers is a bit too large a field to semi-bluff

But I wasn't semi-bluffing. I had top pair with the 3rd nut flush draw. If I just check, I am going to see bets from anything from bottom pair to a made flush, and I'll have zero idea as to how I'm doing. The way I looked at it was that if everyone called, I'm making 6 or 7 to 1 on a 4-1 shot, giving me a good overlay against the ace or king. If everyone folds, that's fine too. If I'm called, I'm still probably leading, and have 5 clean outs to improve without the flush. Take away my pair, and I agree with you. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I doubt the opponent in this hand put me on anything in particular, she just knew she had top pair on the flop, and may even have called if the 4th heart came on the river. Reasonable players in her position would have probably folded once I bet into the ace on the turn, I would think.

I'm always keeping my eye on the pot sizes and general looseness of the tables I'm at, and moving as need be. I must be replacing a lot of loose players at the tables I join, because the average pots invariably decrease after I'm there for a while. Oh well. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I think I'll take Punker's advice and hit Paradise up for a deposit bonus and try out the microlimit action there. To be honest, it can't be too much worse than Party. These games are not quite as loose as I had expected, even if there are a lot of weak players there. Perhaps one of these nights I'll hit a nice run of cards too. Watching the OIC in the Zoo, I feel like I'm not making my fair share of money at these limits. Time will tell.

[Cosimo]

10 hours is nothing. I convinced a few friends to start playing, and they hit a nice 3-5BB/30hands in their first few hours--followed by downswings of the same magnitude. Here's my session stats for 25c-50c play:
approx 2000 hands, -72BB (poor records)
300 hands, +36BB
700 hands, +42BB
200 hands, +30BB
200 hands, +11BB
1600 hands, -22BB
700 hands, +18BB
200 hands, +52BB
500 hands, -54BB
900 hands, -7BB
900 hands, +50BB
900 hands, +30BB
400 hands, +15BB
1100 hands, +50BB

total 10600 hands, +179BB, about +.5BB/hr. Minus those first troublesome 2000 hands, about +.9BB/hr. A few of those big giant early +3BB/hr to +6BB/hr wins had convinced me that I had overthrown my poor initial play. Then, WHAMMO, bloody sunday--1600 hands in a day, down 22BB.

I still have a far way to go, too. Over the last 1063 hands (4-hour session), I saw 24.8% of the flops, won 50BB, spent almost 18 table-hours, but only won about 5.5% of the hands that I played. I fold on the flop about 50% of the time, and 13% on the turn. (River stats not recorded correctly.)

-Cosimo

[davidross]

Buddha,

first of all, if your bankroll is replenishable, I think you should try a higher limit as soon as possible. If you are playing until that deposit is gone, then don't risk it by moving up until you have a reserve. I used 200 BB's as my limit for moving up, because I was determined not to buy in again. But when I started at Party I bought in for $500 and started playing 5/10 and 3/6 right away because I knew I would just re-buy if I went bust. Play the biggest game you can beat if you're not worried about rebuying.

THe first hand you presented is a classic "read" hand. As long as you made the bet for the right reasons I think it's a good bet. If your opponent is more likely to bluff bet with a worse hand than he is to call your bet, then check/call. On this hand the result probably would have been the same.

Hand 2 you have to bet that river. If you habitually check those rivers you can go from a winning player to a break even player pretty quickly. You have to love the guy chasing a runner runner flush, with a very suspect overcard.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2 you have to bet that river. If you habitually check those rivers you can go from a winning player to a break even player pretty quickly. You have to love the guy chasing a runner runner flush, with a very suspect overcard.

[/ QUOTE ]

He also had a gutshot straight draw to go with his shady overcard and BD nut flush draw. I'd stay in for 1 bet most of the time in a game like this.

[DesertEagle]

Not that I disagree, but keep in mind that with the wild (and horrible) play in the $.50-1 games, the pots often exceed $10. At which point the rake on Party is the same as the rake on Paradise.

If the pot hits $15, which it does much more than you'd think it would, then the rake on Party is actually $.25 BETTER than the same rake on Paradise.

Here is a complete comparison I took from another recent post...

Paradise Poker:
0-5 pot: 0$
5-10 pot: .25
10-15 pot: .50
15-20 pot: .75
20-40 pot: 1

Party Poker:
0-5 pot: 0$
5-10 pot: .50
10-15 pot: .50
15-20 pot: .50
20-40 pot: 1

I've recently played an enormous amount of $.50-1 on Party/Empire/Intertops while clearing my bonuses, and I also cleared a bonus on Paradise this weekend while playing $.50-1. I'd say the tight games on Paradise will cost you more long term than the $.25 you save on rake.

Not that this affects your decision to move up or not, I just wanted to point this out for other players who are considering playing $.50-1 on Party. The rake isn't as bad as it seems (sometimes) and the incredibly loose play makes up for it when it is.

When you say moving up, I assume you're moving to $1-2? During my Bonus Whoring, I've played two $.50-1 tables and one $1-2 table at a time, and I'd have to say the $.50-1 games are MUCH easier.

How many tables are you playing?

I don't know that rake is on the $1-2 or $2-4 tables (can anyone help me out with that), but I'd also suggest you consider adding another $.50-1 table to your play as an alternative to moving up to higher limits...

Just a thought... It's been working well for me. I find the horrible play at the $.50-1 level makes up for the difference in limits...

anyone agree?

[NoChance]

When I get home from work each day, I play two .50-$1 tables. I start both with $25 each and usually at about 150 hands or so I have $100 total between the two. When this happens I usually take the $50 profit and join a $1-$2 table and go from there. I know both of these limits are considered low but I see many differences in the two limits. I too roll over the smaller limit tables. I do well at the $1-$2 table too but not to same extent. I have taken the $50 and turned it into $100 three times since Aug 1st but never lost more than $20 there. The difference is....it takes longer. I am starting to see that the lower limit game has a higher return for time played.

I was fairly new to Hold Em a few months ago but have learned quickly. I only recently started tracking my results in detail (every session played, including tournaments). Since that time, using the structure I mention above, I am $340 ahead for the month. I am now considering spending more time at the lower level.

[southerndog]

I like your analysis of hand 2.

[GrinningBuddha]

If your opponent is more likely to bluff bet with a worse hand than he is to call your bet, then check/call.

As time goes on, I'm sure I'll be able to get a better read on certain people, but being new to Party, the database is empty. /images/graemlins/smile.gif
I agree though, I don't think it mattered in this case.

I'd like not to buy in, so perhaps I'll compromise with 100-150 BB before I move up to 1-2. That'll allow me plenty of time at .50/1.00 to get my feet wet.

[GrinningBuddha]

Thanks for the rake comparison, DesertEagle.

I'm currently starting to steadily play on two tables at a time at .50/1.00. I find that gives me enough time to take in both games, unless I get a real rush of cards. If I find myself getting very comfortable like this, I may add a third, but that'll be down the road a bit. Slow but steady progress so far.