A play I hate

[Coilean]

I have 33 in the CO, 2 players limp to me, I call, and both blinds come along.

The flop comes A x x, rainbow and it checks around. (These guys are pretty loose, so I don't see myself picking up the pot here very often.)

The turn is a J, it checks to the thinking LAG on my right who bets. I raise, a play I hate because it's so obvious I can't have much of anything, and everyone folds to the LAG who calls. (I was half expecting a 3-bet, which I planned to call down.)

The river is a brick, and we both check. I show my 33, and LAG laughs and shows his 22, saying "I knew you didn't have anything, I should have reraised." (Lucky for him he didn't this time /images/graemlins/wink.gif.)

Anyway, I only brought this hand up because I often pass on this type of play, as I think it's just begging for the more aggressive sorts (which are fairly common in my games) to start 3-betting me with some pretty funky stuff, putting me in the uncomfortable situation of risking up to 4BB to win what started as a pretty small pot. Anyone else feel the same way about these plays, or should I be willing to stick my neck out more often?

[Josh W]

I agree. The risk/reward ratio is slim here. If you have a habit of doing this, why not just bet the flop? There, the risk/reward ratio is worlds better.

my two cents...

Josh

[Ed Miller]

This play is more attractive in a raised pot. In an unraised pot... bleh...

[Clarkmeister]

I frequently (40%) check behind with an ace on the flop in this situation (short pot, rainbow unconnected board) specifically so I can safely raise the turn in spots like the one you found yourself in.

[anatta]

I make this play quite a bit, but normally its from earlier postion when say the aggressive player in the blind bets out.

When the flop is AXX and its checked to me in LP, I bet almost all the time in a unraised pot with any pair. Watch the players to your left, if they never checkraise, this bet is even better.

You would think that aggressive players would get wise to your turn raises, but, like here, it doesn't seem to workout that way. Maybe since they might slowplay top pair, they fear you did the same. But playing against the same guys everyday, they will catch on, perhaps arguing for a little top pair ace/king slowplay on your part.

[elysium]

hi coilean
i like the check-down on the flop because you must figure the LAG has something, and there are 4 opponents behind you, even though you have the best position. i like you going for the free spike and increasing your implied odds with the best position.

however, when your spike attempt misses, and the LAG makes you the relative UTG on the turn by betting into you, with 4 opponents left to act, it's a clear fold on the turn. you must consider that one or more of the remaining players are meekly calling with a better hand. also, you are quadruple over-carded. and the LAG may have a hand. clear fold on the turn coilean. you won't win often enough here to make calling or raising the long term ev+ thing to do.

[andyfox]

Wouldn't a raised pot have the effect of making the opponent call you down more often?

[andyfox]

In my game, I don't worry about them 3-betting me that much, but it is indeed a concern that they "know" I don't have anything and call me down (or bet into me on the river).

The "solution" is to also, sometimes, check behind when you flop an Ace, as Clarkmeister suggests. Then you can pull the delayed raise more successuflly against a player who has seen you apparently do this before.

[Ed Miller]

Yes, the original bettor will probably call you down more often in a raised pot... but I don't think the callers-of-two-cold will be significantly more likely to do so in a raised pot than in an unraised pot. Thus, I think the move has more value in the raised pot.

Also, you don't have to have the best hand nearly as often in a raised pot to make this profitable.

[andyfox]

O.K. Plus I guess you're more likely to have an Ace and have tried the wait 'til the turn to raise play with a bigger pot.

Also, one thing I've noticed (that I've never had anyone agree with) is that there is a tendency among weaker players to be less inclined to call a bet on the flop or turn in a raised pot, despite the fact that there's more money in the pot, because they fear a big hand more in a raised pot.