what do the suicide bombers want

[Ray Zee]

do they want the total destruction of israel
or
do they want the occupied territories back to whomever they belong
or do they ultimately want the destruction and death of anyone not islamic.

one of these may be doable if the others are not part of it as well.

[Mark Heide]

Ray,

I believe that they want the land that was taken from their families by force back in 1947. So, I don't think there will ever be peace in the middle east until Isreal goes away.

Good Luck

Mark

[MMMMMM]

The Palestinian suicide bombers want all of Israel (for example see the Hamas Charter, or listen to the words of Rantisi).

Islamists, or jihad warriors, want to destroy the West or force its conversion to Islam (I believe it was last autumn that al-Qaeda demanded that the U.K and U.S.A. stop aiding Israel and convert to Islam or face continued attacks). There are also some crossovers between Palestinian terrorists and Islamist terrorists.

I agree that if all they wanted was parts of the territories back--perhaps even large parts-- it certainly might be doable, but that's not all they want. That's what they've said and they mean it. They are fanatics in the grip of a death-cult.

[Timer]

[ QUOTE ]
do they want the total destruction of israel
or
do they want the occupied territories back to whomever they belong
or do they ultimately want the destruction and death of anyone not islamic.

one of these may be doable if the others are not part of it as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

They want complete and total genocide of the Jewish race.

[MMMMMM]

This is actually not far from the truth.

The Hamas Charter contains at least one truly genocidal verse quoted directly from the hadiths, wherein the trees and rocks call out to the Arabs to come kill all the Jews who are hiding behind them.

Leading Islamic clerics today speak of eliminating the Jews, "the sons of pigs and monkeys."

The Nazis collaborated with the Arabs regarding eliminating the Jews, and promised the Arabs that this could be done.

Yet today, people wonder why the Jews needed a tiny little country all of their own.

After the creation of Israel, the King of Jordan told the Palestinians to come help build Jordan, that they would be well paid and at home there among their many Palestinian brothers. So many did. After the infrastructure of Jordan was much improved by this labor, the King of Jordan turned his back on them, in effect betraying them, and shooing them away. They were no longer welcome.

Today the Arabs use the Palestinians as pawns against the Jews, instead of using their riches and land to help resettle their "Moslem brothers." They would rather see the Palestinians suffering and miserable and fighting Israel for all eternity in a war they cannot win, instead of becoming an emanicipated people. There is no lack of land in the nearby Arab kingdoms, and the monarchies do not lack money.

Would you rather be a refugee, fighting for your ancestral home (which "home" most of today's generation have never seen anyway) and living miserably, or would you rather be resettled nearby? But the monarchies are more than greedy, not only offering no resettlement aid to the Palestinians, but actually having appropriated some of the land which was partitioned for the Palestinians. If the Palestinians claim Israel stole their land, why do they not also rail against their Arab neighbors who did exactly this?

The country of Israel is just over 1/1,000 of the total Arab land mass. Yet many Arabs would love not only to take it back, but to eliminate the Jews as well. There were both Jews and Palestinians living there for countless years. If the Arabs had not oppressed the Jews, and if Islam did not make all non-Muslims second-class citizens, and if the Nazis had not come to power, there might have been no need for Israel. But there was a need for Israel.

The Palestinians have a legitimate grievance, but that does not mean there is a perfect solution, or one that would satisfy them perfectly. Compromise is essential here.

The Palestinians and Arabs must learn the art of compromise. The view that the only accceptable thing would be the complete destruction of Israel and subsequent reclamation by the Palestinian Arabs is an example of totalitarian thinking. And Terrorism springs not from poverty, but from Totalitarian Thinking. Similarly, the Islamists or jihad warriors are the embodiment of totalitarian thinking. And of course they are terrorists too.

[brad]

the real answer is that the individual suicide bombers are insane, and that they are driven insane by seeing their ten year old daughter brought home dead because she was shot in the head walking home from school by an (insane) israeli sniper.

but left to their insanity nothing would come of it.

but in step the poli-s (politicians) and see tools they can use and like all polis they have no morals whatsoever and ends-justify-means any strategy they have.

//

ever see the star trek episode where two guys from parallel universes were in a death grip and kirk had to seal them in some kind of rift between universes or whatever? thats the israeli and palestinian leadership (*leadership*) in a nutshell. the madmen in control need each other to keep control of their population. in israels case, anyway, they have a broad democratic system with vigorous debate and this keeps everyone in line.

[MMMMMM]

"the real answer is that the individual suicide bombers are insane, and that they are driven insane by seeing their ten year old daughter brought home dead..."

This is true of some of them no doubt, but many others are brainwashed into insanity. There are TV commercials glorifying martyrdom, and some Palestinian kindergartens even have plays the kids participate in which idolize the martyrs.

And what about al-Qaeda? Are they insane because their relatives were ruthlessly slaughtered by Westerners, or are they brainwashed into insanity for the most part? In the vast majority of cases, at least with al-Qaeda, it is lifelong brainwashing that does it--in the madrassas (religious schools) and in the mosques. It's a damn CULT, that's what it is.

[brad]

heh thats exactly what i thought u were going to say and i totally agree actually. (not sure of the extent tho.)

sure some are brainwashed even to a great manchurian candidate style mind control. whats power for if not to enjoy (thru evil).

US has similiar programs btw. (cia and stuff)

but anyway i agree with you but i think it supports my thesis. i will say tho that you dont have the evidence that all palestinians are brainwashed, while the evidence is clearly there that the extremists are.

[MMMMMM]

I don't think all Palestinians are brainwashed--some are, and extremist jihad warriors generally are.

It's also worth wondering just what effect being forced to pray 5 times a day has on even moderate Muslims.

[KJS]

brad,

There are some new studies out showing that many suicide bombers do not show the signs and symptoms of criminal insanity. I believe the sources are interviews with families and loved ones, notes, etc.. You might want to take a look.

I don't disagree that some of the things that Palestinians are forced to endure could drive someone to murder, but thinking so and acting on that does not make someone insane, IMO.

KJS

[MMMMMM]

I think some of them feel desperate and driven, while others are in the grip of cult-like indoctrination, and some are influenced by both.

Compare the Palestinian terrorists to jihadi warriors for a moment: say to al-Qaeda. Jihadi warriors or Islamists are not driven to desperation by having to endure as the Palestinians must, but they do commit suicide bombings. I view the al-Qaeda activity as very similar to cult behavior. And while that may not be criminal insanity in the traditional or psychiatric sense, it is still plenty crazy. The Palestinians terrorists too are in the grip of a death-cult, although they have more legitimate grievances than those nutcases who just think the West is purely evil.

[nicky g]

Hamas officially wants all Israeli land to be returned to the Palestinians. However, how it achieves that goal is open for discussion; its spokesman Rantissi has said that it would settle for a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, and let future generations campaign for the rest of its goals peacefully.

Islamic Jihad want the same, but also ultimately want a single Muslim caliphate throughout the Arab world. They are quite small with little support and few resources, and are not a major player.

Al-Asqa are a splinter branch of Fatah and seem to be simply responding to the collapse of negotiations and the on-going occupation; their goals aren't very clear.

For once I agree with MMMMMM that al-Qaeda are a bunch of crazy death cultists; I also agree that its members are not responding to any suffering incurred by the West - but they are able to command a lot of support because of the hatred of the West by the Arab street over Palestine and other things. They're also good at exploiting failed states that the West has negelected.