Computing Pot Odds Question

[Dru Lee Parsec]

Hello everyone: I've been reading several hold 'em books and I'm still unclear about one aspect of Pot Odds. I hope you can help clear it up for me.

Let's say I'm on the button in a $3-$6 game and we have the big blind, one caller, I call, and the small blind calls. That's 4 bets for a total of $12 $3 of which is mine.

Question #1 Do I call these odds 4:1 because if everyone folded right now I would win 4 times my investment? Or do I call these odds 3:1 because for each dollar I put in I would win 3?

Questions #2 Now the flop comes and I flop a four flush. The little blind folds, the big blind and the other caller call so there's 6 more dollars in the pot for a total of $18. So if I put in my $3, making the pot $21 are the pot odds 21:3 (which would be 7:1)?

OR do I count my first bet as well. Since $6 of the total $21 is mine am I really getting 3.5:1 pot odds (or depending on the answer to question #1 2.5:1) The odds of filling that four flush in the next 2 cards is about 35% or 2.8:1 against. So do the pot odds make this a good call? (excluding other issues like how big is my biggest suited card. Let's just look at the odds issue)

Lee Jones's book says that you don't worry about bets you've put into the pot in previous betting rounds when computing pot odds. But that just feels wrong. Part of that money is money I've already invested in this hand. It seems that I should be computing the odds based on my total investment vs. the total pot amount.

Does that make sense or am I completly misunderstanding the whole concept?

Thank you very much in advance for your help and advice.

[CrackerZack]

You're misunderstanding a bit, but not far off. Your examples aren't expressing the thinking behind pot odds.

[ QUOTE ]
Let's say I'm on the button in a $3-$6 game and we have the big blind, one caller, I call, and the small blind calls. That's 4 bets for a total of $12 $3 of which is mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

You determine your pot odds before you call. at the time the action is on you, you're getting 7-3 (SB only has 1 in, BB is in). Once you call, it doesn't matter. There are then 4 SBs in the pot.

[ QUOTE ]
Questions #2 Now the flop comes and I flop a four flush. The little blind folds, the big blind and the other caller call so there's 6 more dollars in the pot for a total of $18. So if I put in my $3, making the pot $21 are the pot odds 21:3 (which would be 7:1)?

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't figure out pot odds when betting. When betting, you're looking at a 4 flush, and 4 SBs in the pot. You're betting 1 to win 4, so if you win outright or improve to the best hand more the 25% of the time, this bet will be mathematically profitable. This is a little simplified as you could be check-raised, etc etc.

A better example would be, you flop a 4-flush, the BB bets and MP calls, what are my odds to call? Answer: 6-1.

[ QUOTE ]
Lee Jones's book says that you don't worry about bets you've put into the pot in previous betting rounds when computing pot odds. But that just feels wrong. Part of that money is money I've already invested in this hand. It seems that I should be computing the odds based on my total investment vs. the total pot amount

[/ QUOTE ]

Lee is 100% correct. by folding now, you still lose the bets you already put in, so they're no longer yours, thye belong to the pot. When deciding when to call, you take the size of the total pot, 6 SBs in the above example, and how much you have to pay now, 1 SB, previous bets are already in the pot so are no factor.

I hope this helps.

[Dru Lee Parsec]

OK, Ni. let me say this back to you to make sure I'm understanding correctly (By the way, thank you very much for you're very detailed message)

[ QUOTE ]
you're getting 7-3 (SB only has 1 in, BB is in)

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, that answers my first question plus a bit more. If the odds are expressed X:Y the Y is the amount I put in and X is the amount of the pot that's not mine.

The SB, BB, and the caller put in $7 and I need to add $3 to stay in so the pot odds are 7:3 If I reduce that (as I like to do to keep things consistent) then it's about 2.3:1

[ QUOTE ]
Lee is 100% correct. by folding now, you still lose the bets you already put in, so they're no longer yours

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, so if I follow the same logic and the same example we have $10 in the pot and the SM calls for $2 making it $12. The flop comes and SB folds. BB bets and the caller calls adding $6 to the $12 making it $18. For me to stay in I have to bet $3. If X is the amount in the pot that's not mine (Because none of it is mine any more until I win it) then X is 18. Y is my bet which is $3 so the odds are 18:3 or 6:1

AHA! I see what you mean!

OK, so since my pot odds are 6:1 and the odds of me not making my flush are only 2.8:1 then the pot odds at this point in the game say that it's a good idea for me to call because I'll miss the flush about 1 in 3 times but I will win 6 times my bet when I do hit.

Does that sound right?

[CrackerZack]

Yup, you got it.

[Louie Landale]

Pot odds are calculated considering the current size of the pot when its your turn to act. In your example (and assuming the SB is going to call) you are getting 3:1 to call. On the flop there is a bet and a call for a total of 6sb in the pot and it costs 1sb to call, so you are getting 6:1 to call. Your pre-flop call is already in the pot but your (potential) flop call is NOT in the pot (until you put it there).

Jones is right. If there is 20 bets in the pot and it costs 1 bet to call with your bad hand, it doesn't matter if 3 or 10 of those pot bets were yours originally. If you figure to win more often than one time in 20 you call, otherwise fold.

But you are also right. If you are projecting into the future (that is, expanding "pot odds" to "effective odds" or "implied odds") then you DO consider additional money you may need to invest later. So if you are faced with a call but figure there is a 50% chance it will get raised once behind you after you call, then it really costs 1.5bets to call.

Another realistic example is this: you bet a reasonable hand and get raised by a suspected bluffer. Figuring your "pot odds" vis-a-vis the chances he's bluffing doesn't work so well since you will be faced with bets on future betting rounds. It may cost a total of 3 bets to "call the bluff", and that drastically reduces your "pot odds" on the call.

The pot is what the pot is. Future likely investments (and rewards) are figured differently.

- Louie

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

That's 4 bets for a total of $12 $3 of which is mine.

None of that money is yours. Once it's in the pot it belongs to the pot.

So if I put in my $3, making the pot $21 are the pot odds 21:3 (which would be 7:1)?

Correct.

But that just feels wrong. Part of that money is money I've already invested in this hand.

Regardless of how it feels, what Jones says is correct. The decision you need to make on this round is whether or not to put *this* bet into the pot.