The Fence

[B-Man]

Excellent column below (though I don't think Cyrus, Nicky and AC will like it, it makes too much sense in showing why the fence is completely justified)

Charles Krauthammer:
August 8, 2003


WASHINGTON -- The State Department is proposing that the United States play hardball with Israel -- reducing badly needed loan guarantees -- if it proceeds with the barrier it is erecting between Israeli and Palestinian populations. With this, the State Department joins the latest Palestinian propaganda ploy -- inverting cause and effect, and making the fence the issue, rather than the terrorism that made the fence necessary.

The Israelis are not happy with the fence. They love the land as much as the Palestinians, and scarring it with any barrier is so painful to Israelis that for years they resisted the idea. The reason they finally decided to build it is that they could no longer in good conscience refrain from taking the one step that could prevent Palestinian suicide bombers from sneaking into Israel to blow up innocents.

This is not speculation. There have been nearly 100 Palestinian suicide bombings. All the terrorists came from the West Bank, where the barrier is being built. Not a single one has come from Gaza. Why? Because there already is a fence separating Gaza from Israel.

``The fence would not even be a factor if it were not for the violence in the last few years,'' writes former chief U.S. Middle East negotiator Dennis Ross. ``Truth be told, those responsible for the fence are Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades.''

In America, we build stretches of fence along the Mexican border to prevent foreigners from coming in to take jobs. It takes a lot of audacity to demand that Israel stop building a fence whose purpose is to prevent foreigners from coming in to commit mass murder.

As part of the propaganda campaign against the barrier, it has been called a wall. In fact, it is a fence, with electronics on either side to prevent infiltrators. It is wall-like for only about a tenth of its length -- in just two places, both along the Trans-Israel Highway. Why? Because Palestinian gunmen had been shooting from Palestinian territory onto the highway and killing innocent Israelis.

In America, barrier walls are built along highways to keep neighbors from being inconvenienced by the noise. In Israel, barrier walls are built along highways to prevent passengers from being killed by bullets. Yet the State Department wants to sanction Israel for building a defensive barrier designed to prevent motorists from being shot while transiting inside Israel itself.

What is scandalous about the State Department joining this Palestinian propaganda campaign is that State has for months been campaigning to implement its ``road map'' for peace, published on April 30. It has three phases. We are now in Phase I.

In which phase is Israel supposed to stop work on the fence? In none. There is nothing in the road map about the fence. In any phase.

In Phase I, Israel is supposed to dismantle settlement outposts, which it has begun doing. Ultimately, Israel is required to freeze old settlements, which it is prepared to do when the Palestinians fulfill their part of Phase I. And what is that?

The road map is explicit: The Palestinians must begin ``sustained, targeted, and effective operations aimed at ... dismantlement of terrorist capabilities and infrastructure.'' They have done none of this. None. A three-month truce has been declared. But Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas has not just delayed cracking down on the terrorist apparatus, he has said that he will not do so at all because of fear of a Palestinian civil war.

How has the State Department reacted to this open reneging on the Palestinians' central obligation in Phase I? At first, it said it would simply give Abbas a short time to begin dismantling the terrorist infrastructure. Now it appears quite satisfied with a temporary truce that allows Hamas and the other terrorists to rearm and regroup, and that can and will be broken at the time and place of their choosing.

This is a direct contradiction of the road map. It is a contradiction of the central requirement of Palestinian compliance. It is a contradiction of the Middle East policy announced by President Bush in his June 24, 2002, speech that promised the Palestinians their own independent state -- but only if they first ceased the violence and dismantled the violence machine.

The State Department is ignoring, indeed excusing, Palestinian violation of their central obligation under Phase I of the road map. At the very same time, State is threatening Israel with sanctions over a fence that is nowhere mentioned in the road map.

This kind of amnesia and one-sidedness is not new. We have been here before. It was called Oslo. And we know how it ended.

[nicky g]

Both you and the article completely ignore the main objection to the fence as it is being built, which is that it does not run long the border between Israel and the West Bank, but runs well into Palestinian territory. Powell made it very clear that this objection was not to a fence in principle, but one that effectively annexed lage chunks of the West bank into Israel. It is typical of Krauthammer's standards of "journalism" that he not once bothers to mention this in his article.

[MMMMMM]

Well, it is still the Palestinian terrorists who are the force which requires this fence to be built. If they snipe people on highways from a distance, I would say any wall or fenced should be at least at sufficient distance to keep them safely at arm's length...out of range of rifle fire, for instance.

Also, a carrot-and-stick approach appears to be called for here: if the Palestinians become peaceful, they should progressively gain territory; if they send suicide bombers, they should progressively lose territory. And they should clearly understand that their actions bear these consequences.

[adios]

Excellent point IMO. WSJ mentinoned today that the fence is meant to stymie a 9/11 type attack on Tel Aviv high rise buildings with suicide truck bombings. Suicide terrorists and those that support them hardly have any right to ask for merciful treatment. This should start the next round of the terrorists exist because of ill treatment by the Israelis as the reason du jour.

[nicky g]

"And they should clearly understand that their actions bear these consequences. "

Unlike Israeli soldiers, who as we've seen bear no conequences for action such as killing civilians; even the "bad apples" you claim are responsible for the worst instances. I like how Palestinian olive farmers are to be held responsible for the actions of Hamas bombers; last time I checked collective punishment was a war crime.


"If they snipe people on highways from a distance, I would say any wall or fenced should be at least at sufficient distance to keep them safely at arm's length...out of range of rifle fire, for instance. "

This is absurd. The wall will be heavily patrolled and covered in barbed wire. There is no way a Palestinian gunman is going to be able to perch on top of it taking potshots at the Tel Aviv rush hour.

I've come to see that you guys will rationalise anything the Israelis do; anything . Anyone would think you were paid-up spokesmen. There's clearly no point in continuing this discussion.

[Wake up CALL]

Screw the sensitiveties of the poor Palestian terrorists.

[MMMMMM]

nicky I am not advocating collective punishment for the Palestinians, but rather observing that the attacks of Palestinian terrorist organizations force Israel to defend against the Palestinians as as whole. Unfortunately that must involve high measures of security and some segregation.

If the Palestinians are serious about the road map then let Mazen DISMANTLE the terror organizations--as he is required to do in the Road Map. If he can't, let him request outside assistance to to accomplish this.

If the Palestinians keep sending suicide bombers, Israel has every right to defend. And that defense unfortunately does somewhat unavoidably punish the Palestinians as a whole. However that doesn't mean Israel shouldn't defend.

I do think the carrot-and-stick approach is entirely warranted at this point. The Palestinians have shown themselves to be unwilling to renounce terror and terror must not be rewarded.

Finally, while I know you do not support terror attacks, you do seem to feel that the fence is more of an outrage than suicide bombings. Well it isn't. Suicide bombings are by far worse and are also the reason the fence is needed in the first place.

Of course an alternate solution might be to invade and thoroughly occupy the Palestinian territories, then round up and execute all the leaders of the 3 major terrorist organizations. But I suspect you would find that far more outrageous than the continuing Palestinian suicide bombings. Well it wouldn't be but it might be a bit outrageous. However a fence to keep the ANIMALS out--and the TERRORIST SUICIDE_BOMERS ARE ANIMALS--is perfectly rational and justifiable. If the Palestinians themselves can't or won't restrain or destroy their packs of wild dogs, someone else will have to do it--or at least a fence will be needed to keep them out. And if you think I'm being too harsh on the suicide-bombers and the organizations which send them, I assure you, I am being too lenient. Terrorists have no moral right to exist because their entire raison de etre is to kill and maim as many innocent people as possible. And since their irrevocable goal is to die and drag as many innocent people with them in the process, it should be obvious that the best way to deal them is to kill them first.

Amazing that a FENCE should arouse more outrage than SUICIDE BOMBINGS. Totally amazing.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]


I've come to see that you guys will rationalise anything the Israelis do; anything .

[/ QUOTE ]

So you are suggesting that the fence is an atrocity on a par with suicide bombings?

But there is a simple solution if the rest of the Palestinian people dislike the security measures Israel is forced to take: dismantle Hamas et al. Renounce the organized targeting of innocent civilians for slaughter. Fat chance though, when a large portion of the Palestinian population actually supports Hamas.

The death-cult of the suicide-bomber is beyond wrong, beyond sick, and beyond evil. It is quite simply the worst mass depravity in the world today. Blaming Israel for erecting a fence to keep the suicide bombers out is not looking at the problem correctly.

[brad]

'In America, we build stretches of fence along the Mexican border to prevent foreigners from coming in to take jobs.'

thats pretty funny and makes me think the rest of the article might distort the truth as much as this statement does.

[MMMMMM]

This was on my first page of Google search:

(excerpt) "Beach border protest
Festive FTAA demonstration in Tijuana
By David B. Huffman

Last Saturday in Playas de Tijuana, Mexico, cardboard signs protesting the FTAA festooned the tall metal fence that rises out of the sea and runs along the US-Mexican border."(end excerpt)

http://www.sfbg.com/News/35/30/30ogftaab.html

[brad]

you think a little too literally my friend /images/graemlins/smile.gif

my point is that the INS (ok its now someting else) *admitted* 3-5 million illegal border crossings per year. i think i posted this on this forum and the link from a mainstream big city newspaper (who picked up story from AP).

so is the fence doing any good? do u really think illegal immigration is being stopped when the INS admits 3-5 million illegals per year?

that was my point anyway.

[Wake up CALL]

Use some simple math brad, it is not possible that 3 to 5 million illegal aliens are entering our country each year. After all, pretty soon we would be out of burritos if that were true. There are still plenty to go around.

[brad]

look up INS (whatever) figures for estimate of illegal aliens living in US and lets see.

[nicky g]

"If the Palestinians are serious about the road map then let Mazen DISMANTLE the terror organizations--as he is required to do in the Road Map. If he can't, let him request outside assistance to to accomplish this. "

This is simply not possible ubnder current conditions, with or without outside assistance. It would start an unwinnable civil war that would compeltely destory what's left of Palestinian society. The terrorist groups are not defeatable; they have far too much public support. They have offered a permanent ceasefire based on negatiations. Such a ceasefire is what brought peace to Northern Ireland. No terrorist group with popular support has ever been defeated militarily and this is no exception - the Israelis should take the ceasefire.

"Finally, while I know you do not support terror attacks, you do seem to feel that the fence is more of an outrage than suicide bombings."


No, I don't. THe reason I don't make a big deal of the bobmings is because noone here needs convicing of their horror. We are agreed that they are awful, though we disagree on what is the best way to bring them to an end. I agree that the bombings are worse than the building of the fence, though I do not believe they have as detrimental an effect on Israelis society as the occupation does on Plaestinian society.

"Suicide bombings are by far worse and are also the reason the fence is needed in the first place."

As I've said before, my objection isn't to the "fence" (30ft barbed-wire topped wall with gunner nests at regular intervals)) per se, though I doubt it will work. It is to the fact that the fence goes well beyond the green line, annexes large chunks of some of the best Palestinian land into Israel, reinforces the permancnce of the settlements, cuts off farmers from their crops, villages from water resources and from each other, and all entirely needlessly. Your only justification for this is the absurd argument that Palestinan snipers might shoot Israeli drivers on the other side from probably the most heavily militarised area in the world. Even the Israleis don't bother with such a feeble excuse.

There is a ceasefire now which Hamas et al have offered to make permanent. That's a permanent end to the suicide bombings, in return for an end to Israeli attacks and the continuation of the roadmap. The Israeli government refuses to accept it, and continues to expand the settlements in violation of their agreements. And yet you think we're conspiracy theoists for suggesting they don't want peace.


No, as a matter of fact I don't. I don't make a big deal out of the bombings because there is noone here I need to convince of their horror.

[MMMMMM]

Well it's reassuring to know that you don't think the fence is more outrageous than suicide bombings.

It would not necessarily be impossible to defeat the Palestinian terrorists militarily. Their territory is far, far smaller than Afghanistan or Iraq; I strongly suspect all of the area could be occupied and the leaders could all be captured or killed. It would just take a committed high-tech force of sufficient numbers to do it. I'm not saying that would be the best solution now but it could be eventually if they fail to renounce terror. If you think it would be impossible just imagine 100,000+ US forces and 200,000 Israeli forces and Military Police occupying the entire area and tell me if you think it would then be impossible. Certainly all the houses could be searched and militants rounded up, weapons caches found, and leaders identified. And if we're doing that we might as well take out all of Hezbollah too, that despicable murderous militant group whose motto "was, is, and will always be 'Death To America'" according to their leader Nasrallah.

I have not heard, as you mention, that Hamas has offered a permanent cease-fire. That would be good news indeed but let's not forget how previous Palestinian guaranteees and promises of security for Israel have ended up.