wars, land , religion

[Ray Zee]

do you think that if countries boundries were set in stone once and for all. and all organized religions were abolished we would have few or no more wars.
arent all wars ultimately fought over one or the other.

[Dynasty]

Wars are fought over power, not religon or borders. If religon and borders were abolished or set in stone, power would be determined by some other variable.

[Cyrus]

Countries are imaginary constructs. There is no such thing as a country in nature. (Even Man imposed closed frontiers rather late in History.) Taking apart the imaginary institution of society (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0262531550/qid=1060283279/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-0088231-9927877?v=glance&s=books) requires first of all that the concept of that radical step is widely understood and accepted by the populace, and not just by an elite. Otherwise, we have bolshevism, at best. So, taking away frontiers and religion, yes, it's a good thing, but it should come with the consensus of the people. But the people in most societies right now appear to be too taken with mind-numbing diversions to think too much about their condition.

My two cents: frontiers seem destined to lose their importance due to the advance of globalisation and unrestrained movement of goods. (It is, for instance, completely unthinkable that war can break out in western Europe today, an area that had known no period of peace longer than 20 years for the last two millenia.) Nobody can accurately predict how this dangerous but seemingly unstoppable course will shape the world.

(If I remember well, a pre-eminent writer on this aspect of social analysis, Cornelius Castoriadis (http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/disband/solidarity/bio_castoriadas.html) , was the subject of my very first post here, when I "raised" John Cole!)

[Men the Master]

War will end once there is only one religion left - Christianity. "Love thy neighbor as you love thyself".

War will end once there is only one country left- the United States. "......for the people, by the people, and of the people".

The ideal world is a Christian world with an American style Constitution. If there is both love and freedom, there will be peace.

[John Cole]

Ah, I remember it well. The best film, without question, on the subject of illusory borders is Renoir's Grand Illusion. Its monumental final scene, as the soldiers escape across the snow covered "border," should be required viewing for all those who post here.

John

[Mark Heide]

John,

Renoir's Grand Illusion is one of my favorite films. I added the Criterion DVD version to my library. This is a completely restored version. Get it if you don't have it because it is great!

Mark

[Mark Heide]

Ray,

Governments engage in War for the primary purpose of monetary gain. Religion was created by the wealthy to control the masses and use it as a motivator for going to war.

Mark

[John Ho]

Nah. Religion gives people hope. I would not subscribe to the theory that it was a big conspiracy by the powerful to control the masses. Certainly some people use it in this manner but most of your religious folk are true believers.

[John Ho]

Of course John Lennon wrote a great song on this topic. There is no way to set boundaries in stone. Now, if the world were one great big country we'd have something. After all, you never see two states of the good ol USA trading gunfire with each other.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
After all, you never see two states of the good ol USA trading gunfire with each other.

[/ QUOTE ]

At least not for the last 138 years on any serious level.

[Mark Heide]

John,

I just stated one of the major reasons why man has used religion. If we look at history during the middle ages we can see that Christian religions were used to motivate masses to engage in war. The reason why I don't like religion is it is frequently used by governments to mislead the masses. Why do you think the kings and queens of the middle ages had such close ties to religious figures?

As you have stated it provides the masses with hope. I believe that this hope is hopeless. Most people believe in religion because they are taught it from early childhood, so I consider it a form of brainwashing. Religion is most effective with keeping poor people from uprising against the rich.

Mark

[Zeno]

I think it is more fundamental to say that the powerful in society use religion as a means to gain more power and influence and to somewhat steer the populace, however much that is really possible to do.

Religion was not necessarily "created" by the wealthy. Religion has its roots deep in human history and can be traced to an outgrown of primitive superstitions, taboos, ignorance, magic, and fear. Some perceptive early humans used these emotions and ideas to control and manipulate others and thus gain power and make life easier for themselves. If you can set yourself up as an intercessory between “the people” and some powerful spirit, or god, or gods, you have gain a considerable amount of influence and power. The priestly classes in ancient Egypt are a good example, or say a shaman from some indigenous tribe in North America.

[Gitz]

One other I would add is "BOREDOM" The unimaginative go to war. It's their sol'n to peace. Plus most of the clowns who orchestrate the war are good at it. It's like winning at cards if your good at it you keep playing.

rcp

[Mark Heide]

Zeno,

Well said! I just wanted to make it clear that I was commenting about religion in relation to war and land.

Good Luck

Mark

[BruceZ]

Religious wars are just people fighting over who has the better imaginary friend.

[Cyrus]

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