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View Full Version : Baseball musical chairs? Benitez to Mariners for Nelson.


Zeno
08-06-2003, 11:49 PM
From ESPN article:

"SEATTLE -- Just 2½ weeks after getting him, the New York Yankees traded Armando Benitez to the Seattle Mariners for fellow reliever Jeff Nelson in a surprising swap Wednesday between division leaders.


"It is definitely unusual, but we were both interested in improving ourselves,'' Yankees general manager Brian Cashman said. "Hopefully we did that.''


The deal comes less than a week after the trade deadline. Each team actually claimed the other player, permitting them to make a deal only with each other. Each right-hander is eligible to become a free agent after the season.


Seattle and New York open a three-game series at Yankee Stadium on Friday night."



I haven't figured this one out yet. The Yanks didn't use Benitez much. Nelson is familar with both clubs so it may be better deal for the Yankees. Benitez is a wild card now more than ever. A real gamble I think, I hope it pays off. With Oakland breathing down their necks the Mariners cannot afford to make many mistakes. Only a 3 game lead at present.

The Yanks/Mariners series will be a good one to watch this weekend. Hope Moyer pitches one of the games.

-Zeno

Dynasty
08-07-2003, 12:35 AM
Nelson made some public complaints about the Mariner's front office failing to improve the team before the deadline. Without those comments, I don't think this trade would have happened.

It's possible that the Mariners want Benitez as an emergency closer just in case Kazuhiro Sasaki isn't able to return to form when he gets of the DL. However, Shigetosi Hasegawa has been so excellent in the role, I think the Mariners should leave him there even when Sasaki is back and 100% healthy.

Overall, the trade is a wash talent wise. But, the Mariners get rid of a player who's been bitching and the Yankees get rid of a player who isn't popular in New York.

Sooga
08-07-2003, 12:52 AM
I thought the trade was perfect irony. A player known for being great during the regular season and flailing in the playoffs gets traded to a team who does great during the regular season and flails in the playoffs. The Mariners winning 116 games during the 2001 regular season and then subsequently losing 4-1 to the Yankees in the postseason was a pretty memorable choke job.

andyfox
08-07-2003, 01:49 AM
The Yankees must have felt Benitez, after closing for so long with the Mets, was uncomfortable as a set-up man. Nelson, of course, if used to that role, and is particularly tough on righties.

Nelson will now have played twice for both the Yankees and Mariners.

Both the Yankees and Mariners will have their hands full the rest of the way against two tought teams on their tails.

ripdog
08-07-2003, 04:09 AM
I think Dynasty hit the nail on the head. The big news here is that the Mariners didn't do anything before the deadline--fans are upset. I think we'd like to unload Cirillo and maybe Garcia, but both of them are doing so poorly that it'd be tough to get much in return. At least Cirillo is an excellent fielder, but the BA is down to .210. Garcia would be tough to give up on, IMO. I think he'll stay. Nelson complained that he was used to the Yankees making deals and doing what it takes to win, but the M's don't. Kind of ironic that he'd wind up there. Griffey used to openly bash the Mariner front office...I guess Nelson ain't no Griffey. I guess the FO is tired of that game.

Josh W
08-07-2003, 04:16 AM
Bah. They did choke in 2001, but also surprised the baseball nation in 1995. I'd say it's a wash.

Remember 1995? They had to win a one-game playoff with..um...shoot. Who was it?

9-1, with Luis Sojo having an inside the park grandslam (okay, so there were errors).

To those who were in Seattle in 1995, they will always remember the magic. it's the only good sports moment in seattle since the late '70's. Wow. (oh, and UW winning the national championship in 1991)

Josh

Josh W
08-07-2003, 04:17 AM
Whaddya mean they didn't do anything? They got their much needed bat in the form of .207 hitting Rey Sanchez!!!

As for griping about the front office...it's a different front office. Also, I think the griping may have propelled the trade, it wasn't the sole reason (I hope).

J

Josh W
08-07-2003, 04:19 AM
Yeah, hands full for sure. It bothers me as a die-hard mariners fan. I've said all year that they aren't that good, and if Tejada and Chavez ever start doing anything, Oakland is the better team, period. Now, look out.

So, I'm almost resigned to the WildCard. But the RedSox are my second favorite team (Because I hate the Yankees). So I have to root against them. If Seattle just wins the rest of their games, that would be pretty fanbloodytastic.

JW

Josh W
08-07-2003, 04:21 AM
Seattle wins 2 outta 3. They have better starting pitching and bullpen (Even Garcia, who has struggled of late...He's got great stuff, and a not-great head. But in big games, he usually rectifies the situation).

Now that you've heard what my heart has to say, who knows what my brain says...

Josh W

Sooga
08-07-2003, 04:37 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Garcia would be tough to give up on, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Garcia has not proven anything yet. If I were the M's, I'd be happy to get a live body for him at this point. Consider these numbers:

year ERA WHIP
1999 4.07 1.47
2000 3.91 1.42
2001 3.05 1.12
2002 4.39 1.30
2003 5.57 1.44

Quick, which one of these is not like the others? That's right, 2001, when he won 18 games, and people started calling him a great pitcher. He hadn't done anything particularly great before 2001 , and he's gotten a lot worse since 2001. All of this while pitching half his games in a pretty good pitcher's park. I mean seriously... a 5.57 ERA? Even Colorado pitchers don't have ERA's that high. Garcia should be on the DL for the fork he has lodged in his back.

Josh W
08-07-2003, 05:00 AM
Bah.

Garcia is on-again, off-again. He's got great stuff, but a weak mindset. It's easier to get a mindset right than it is to take a mediocre pitcher and make him great.

If the M's were playing the WhiteSox tomorrow, would I want him pitching? No, I'd take any of the other 4 starters right now. But 22 months from now, I'll bet he's better than any M's pitcher ever was/is. He's got great stuff. Only a fool would give up on him.

There's a reason why Rick Ankiel still gets headlines. And Garcia is nowhere near that messed up. Plus, he has some credentials.

Josh

Sooga
08-07-2003, 05:27 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Bah.

Garcia is on-again, off-again. He's got great stuff, but a weak mindset. It's easier to get a mindset right than it is to take a mediocre pitcher and make him great.

If the M's were playing the WhiteSox tomorrow, would I want him pitching? No, I'd take any of the other 4 starters right now. But 22 months from now, I'll bet he's better than any M's pitcher ever was/is. He's got great stuff. Only a fool would give up on him.

There's a reason why Rick Ankiel still gets headlines. And Garcia is nowhere near that messed up. Plus, he has some credentials.

Josh

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, then consider me a fool. Garcia's on the wrong side of 27, and he should by all accounts be entering the upswing of his career, when he seems to be doing the opposite. Sure, you can spit names like Johnson, Schilling, and Moyer (pitchers who learned how to pitch later) all day long, but every one of those, there are a hundred Darren Dreiforts who have amazing stuff but for one reason or another have never put it together. Even Johnson and Schilling (before they were great) were still considered 'good' pitchers, ERA's always in the 3's, and good strikeout numbers.

That aside, Johnson and Schilling have always had overpowering stuff. Garcia doesn't. He doesn't have any pitch that leaves you speechless. Garcia's just been getting worse since 2001, although he will probably do better next year (as you can't do much worse than he's doing this year). As for the ChiSox, I'll take Buerhle 22 months from now over Garcia any day of the week.

Sooga
08-07-2003, 06:03 AM
Oops, i misread your post. What you originally said is even worse. I thought you were comparing Freddy to the ChiSox pitchers, when you were actually comparing him to any past or present M's pitcher. You're joking, right? Randy Johnson? Jamie Moyer? Joel Pineiro? You think Freddy will be as effective as any of these guys? You gotta lay off the crackpipe.

Zeno
08-07-2003, 12:05 PM
All good points. I don't pay any attention to all the yapping by players but I'm sure others do in the respective organizations. I especially like your point about the closers and that Hasegawa should stay put.

-Zeno

Zeno
08-07-2003, 12:09 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The Mariners winning 116 games during the 2001 regular season and then subsequently losing 4-1 to the Yankees in the postseason was a pretty memorable choke job.

[/ QUOTE ]


Thanks for reminding me. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

-Zeno

andyfox
08-07-2003, 12:14 PM
Nelson's a big of a bigmouth--he also had some negative things to say about Joe Torre a couple of years ago when Torre left him off the all-star team.

Zeno
08-07-2003, 12:28 PM
Pitching line up for Mariners/Yankees Series, starts Friday:

Franklin(8-9) - Weaver(6-8)

Meche(12-7) - Pettitte(13-6)

Moyer(15-5) - Clemens(11-7)

All good match ups and if we toss Benitez/Nelson in the mix and have them coming in the game ~ 8th inning or so, or against some hitters in key situations late in the game - the makings of some great baseball and suspense. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Mariners take 2 out of 3. I would say 3 out of 3 but I can't be that optimistic. /images/graemlins/wink.gif
I wonder what the Vegas boys have for a line on these games?

-Zeno

ripdog
08-07-2003, 12:41 PM
I was thinking the inverse here. I hope I'm wrong, but I think that the M's continue to lose close games for the rest of the year, come in second to Oakland, and maybe, if their lucky, get into the playoffs as the wild card. That is a shame considering what Moyer, Pinero, Meche, and Franklin have done this year. I hope Moyer gets the Cy Young. He's a class act all the way and when he does throw at you, you've got plenty of time to get out of the way. I'm amazed at what he does.

andyfox
08-07-2003, 12:49 PM
I would think Halliday has the inside track on the Cy Young award. But each pitcher will have about 10 more starts, so we'll see. Great battle of two 40-year olds on Sunday with vastly different approaches to pitching.

ripdog
08-07-2003, 01:00 PM
I don't think he's done. He's a head case, for sure, but he's got a 95 plus fastball and a wicked curveball to go along with it. One more effective pitch and he could dominate. He needs to grow up and pitch smart. The fork is a tad premature, I think. Take a look at Moyer's numbers before and after his current stint with the M's. Would you have forked him too? 120-54 over 8 years. 59-75 over the prior 9 years. Garcia needs to learn how to pitch. When he does, he'll be a Clemens type. I'd keep him, no question.

Josh W
08-07-2003, 01:16 PM
I meant better than any current mariner (moyer included).

Dreifort never put it together. Freddy has. He has shown complete brilliance at times. He's done the opposite too, to be sure. But at least he's done something with his great stuff (unlike the Dreiforts of the world).

J

Dynasty
08-07-2003, 01:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I would think Halliday has the inside track on the Cy Young award.

[/ QUOTE ]

Esteban Loaiza has a huge lead on the field in the Cy Young race. His ERA is more than a full point better than both Halladay and Moyer.

Sooga
08-07-2003, 01:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think he's done. He's a head case, for sure, but he's got a 95 plus fastball and a wicked curveball to go along with it. One more effective pitch and he could dominate. He needs to grow up and pitch smart. The fork is a tad premature, I think. Take a look at Moyer's numbers before and after his current stint with the M's. Would you have forked him too? 120-54 over 8 years. 59-75 over the prior 9 years. Garcia needs to learn how to pitch. When he does, he'll be a Clemens type. I'd keep him, no question.


[/ QUOTE ]

Moyer's a complete freak. How he continues to consistently get major leaguers out throwing the 70mph cheese that he slings up there just baffles me. I can't really think of many other Moyer-type pitchers out there, pitchers that never really had amazing stuff, but managed to turn into a great pitcher later. Anyway, perhaps I'm just bitter that Garcia killed my fantasy team in all of his starts this year, and I genuinely do hope he turns it around, but I'm doubtful whether he can.

Zeno
08-07-2003, 02:08 PM
From the ESPN Seattle webpage:

"If RHP Freddy Garcia continues to falter, he may be moved out of the rotation, the Seattle Time reported. "I don't think the minor leagues are a viable option," pitching coach Bryan Price told the newspaper. "I think you can look at the bullpen as a very temporary alternative. It can clear his mind knowing that he has to get six outs and can see the finish line a little bit easier. … I'd rather see him (pitch better) as a starter, but he's got to show some improvement."


Garcia has been too inconsistent this year - I think Seattle needs to do something with him. He has been a liability to the mariners and even more so now, because the AL race is going to be very tight. They should have sent him down to the minors earlier in the year.


-Zeno

Zeno
08-07-2003, 02:26 PM
Mariners schedule last two weeks of season:

Mon. 15 at Texas 8:05 PM FxNW Arlington
Tue. 16 at Texas 8:05 PM FxNW Arlington
Wed. 17 at Texas 8:05 PM FxNW Arlington
Thu. 18 at Texas 2:05 PM FxNW Arlington

Fri. 19 at Oakland 10:05 PM FxNW Network Coliseum
Sat. 20 at Oakland 4:05 PM Network Coliseum
Sun. 21 at Oakland 4:05 PM KSTW Network Coliseum

Mon. 22 at Anaheim 10:05 PM FxNW Edison Field
Tue. 23 at Anaheim 10:05 PM FxNW Edison Field
Wed. 24 at Anaheim 4:05 PM Edison Field

Fri. 26 Oakland 10:05 PM FxNW SAFECO
Sat. 27 Oakland 4:05 PM FxNW SAFECO
Sun. 28 Oakland 4:05 PM FxNW SAFECO


My take is that the Mainers must have a 3-4 game lead on Oakland at the September 15 mark. Then they have a good chance of wining the AL West. If they don't it will be uphill all the way and they (hopefully) get the wildcard. It will be tight - But maintaing a lead will be key. A pox on Bill Beane and his damn Oakland Team. I hope they go into a nosedive. Not likely I know.

If it comes down to the last series in Seattle they will be some great games to see.

-Zeno

ripdog
08-07-2003, 03:33 PM
In an article in the Seattle Times, Moyer said there are situations where he needs to throw balls that look like strikes and stikes that look like balls. He is an enigma. It is fun to watch the big league hitters swing over the top of his curveball. The unfair thing is that teams look at Moyer for 7 or 8 innings, then get Rafael Soriano and his 95 mph stuff. Rumour has it that Soriano hit 101 in his last appearance. Radio ball--you can hear it, but you can't see it.

Sooga
08-07-2003, 06:15 PM
[ QUOTE ]
In an article in the Seattle Times, Moyer said there are situations where he needs to throw balls that look like strikes and stikes that look like balls. He is an enigma. It is fun to watch the big league hitters swing over the top of his curveball. The unfair thing is that teams look at Moyer for 7 or 8 innings, then get Rafael Soriano and his 95 mph stuff. Rumour has it that Soriano hit 101 in his last appearance. Radio ball--you can hear it, but you can't see it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, for some reason watching Moyer reminds of that Bugs Bunny baseball cartoon where Bugs throws balls that stop in mid-air 2 or 3 times before getting to the plate. As for Soriano, since we're on the subject of 'stuff', his stuff is flat out filthy. His fastball, like you said, keeps getting faster and faster, and his slider is damn near unhittable. Plus he has that Rivera/Prior easy throwing motion, so the pitch seems to get to home plate even faster. I can't wait to see how this guy turns out.

Dynasty
08-08-2003, 10:47 PM
Lines from Friday's Mariners-Yankees game:

Nelson (NY): 1 IP, 0 ER, 0 H, 0 BB, 3 K

Benitez (SEA): 1 IP, 1 ER, 2 H, 0 BB, 2K

andyfox
08-08-2003, 11:16 PM
The score was 8-7 Yankees at the time. So the 8th inning both pitchers pitched was crucial. Especially with Rivera struggling this week; getting him a 2-run lead made things a lot easier for him, one would think.

Zeno
08-09-2003, 01:39 AM
Nelson was great.

Benitez so-so bad, he is psychologically beat in New York.

Zeno
08-09-2003, 01:52 AM
I agree, the extra run is a big factor for pitchers in the ninth. Pitching is just a little bit easier.

The Mariners really blew this game in the sixth. And with Mr. Franklin throwing a gut ball to Johnson so he can get a grand slam was what won the game for the Yankees. He made a very bad pitch in a crucial situation.

These are just the types of mistakes a good team should not be making. Hope the Mariners shape up.

Exciting baseball- I did not like the outcome of course, but I am still proud of the Mariners and tomorrow is another day on the diamond. Go Mariners.

And then the D-backs lose at home to the Mets. Art Howe did some great chin posing in the dugout. Bad night for me as a fan.

-Zeno