how to play this one

[sattre]

I'm playing $2/4 Hold 'Em in a loose game. People are unusually loose over a period of a bad beat payout, where if you lose with pocket Aces, you win $75. I have 7h - 7s in the small blind and just call with 5 others, plus BB in the pot, already. (I don't like raising, because everyone will call at $2/4 and the odds of hitting a set are 7-1.) Flop comes:
8h - 7d - 2d
I bet out at a 2-4 table, because everyone always calls anyways. I want to build a nice-sized pot. If someone raises, I'll raise back with 2 suits on the board, because there have been many flushes recently. All 5 call. I'm hoping for anything but a diamond, and of course it comes:
Jd
I'm not going to assume someone has already hit a flush, but it's probably happened. I plan to check-raise, depending on who bets. It checks around to a younger guy on the button who bets. He hadn't bet at any pots with at least a solid hand, and I figure it's not just a position bet. I figure he has two pair or a mid-level flush. I figure 2 others might call his bet, or I can raise and not pay on the river. I have less than 10 outs - which would be a bad scenario, since he would definately have a flush. So I raise, and no one else calls 2 big bets cold. He calls. River comes: 3c.
I check, and he checks. He turns over the King- high flush. Did I play this one correctly?
/images/graemlins/grin.gif Sattre

[Yeknom58]

If your pretty sure he has a flush and didn't plan on paying the river if your boat didn't fill why did you raise? I would want those other two guys to come along for the ride and hopefully pay me on the river. Also if it isn't raised and you check call the turn and check call the river it still cost only 2 BB to see if he has the flush.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like raising, because everyone will call at $2/4

[/ QUOTE ]

But when you have JJ, QQ, KK, AA, I hope you like raising then.

[ QUOTE ]
If someone raises, I'll raise back with 2 suits on the board

[/ QUOTE ]

You better!

[ QUOTE ]
because there have been many flushes recently

[/ QUOTE ]

This is completely arbitrary, have no worry about the hands that have occured in the past, this is why the shuffle the deck.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not going to assume someone has already hit a flush, but it's probably happened

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are not worried, then BET! No reason to check-raise, bet out and if raised, call and play with caution.

[ QUOTE ]
I have less than 10 outs - which would be a bad scenario, since he would definately have a flush

[/ QUOTE ]

You are a 4-1 shot to beat the flush, don't sound so depressed about it.

[ QUOTE ]
Did I play this one correctly?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. Bet the turn.

Welcome to the forum,
Larry Joe

[Brian]

Hey everybody, been coming to this site for a while but haven't posted anything (in other words a lurker). I plan on posting some hands here pretty soon, as most of the winning players in this forum have said that that is the best way to better your game.

Anyways, this post is more of a question for myself having to do with Sattre's situation rather than an answer for his question. I have often been wondering what to do when you are in the SB or BB and dealt pocket pairs when a lot of people have limped in. Here, Sattre completed, stating that he didn't want to raise because his odds were only 7.5:1 (which is correct of course) of making his set, which seems like a fine play to me and one that I would normally have made before visiting 2+2.

However, I can't help but feel that a raise right here is pretty good too. Assuming that you're playing at a typical low limit game, I think you pretty much assume that the BB and the 5 other limpers will probably come along with you, thus keeping your odds the same (before 6sb:1sb, now 12sb:2sb). So what does this gain you if the odds are still the same? Well you are getting in that extra money before the flop so that when you do flop a set there is even more money in the pot. In other words, when you limp with 77 and then flop a set, in a normal low limit game where a lot of people see the flop but are also quick to fold on the flop, you aren't getting any extra bets from those people. However, because your hand is so well-disguised, you will still be able to milk the other people that you normally would be able to milk had you limped.

I think you guys understand what I am saying, but if you need an example I'd be happy to post one. BTW, I do understand that when there are so many people in the pot and you have 77, this is a purely hit the flop or fold situation.

-Brian

[slavic]

Brian- Your saying you want to raise to help hide your set if it makes, but you only need to do that if your opponents wouldn't normally chase. In this game they are going to make you show a hand at the river and they are going to play their hands way to long. Now if your in the BB and 9 players call in front of you, give it a nice pop you are getting better direct odds to make your set.

Also be carefull that you don't force yourself to overplay a medium pair. Let's say you raise 77 and the flop comes A56r, your likely to be tempted to play this hand way to long and ruin whatever you would have made when you flop a set.

see pg 125 HEPFAP and then make sure to read the loose games section.

[Brian]

[ QUOTE ]
Brian- Your saying you want to raise to help hide your set if it makes, but you only need to do that if your opponents wouldn't normally chase. In this game they are going to make you show a hand at the river and they are going to play their hands way to long. Now if your in the BB and 9 players call in front of you, give it a nice pop you are getting better direct odds to make your set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Slavic,

First of all, thank you very much for your response /images/graemlins/smile.gif I was worried that no one would see it and I would have to repost. I appreciate any and all input /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I do, however, think that you missed my point a bit. If I implied in my post that I was raising to disguise my hand, I apologize, because this is not the reason that I was raising at all. Like I said in my post, I am not worried about milking any money from players who hit part or any of the flop at this level. I know that they will chase me all the way, whether I raise OR not. The reason that I am raising, however, is to extract extra bets from the people who would normally fold on the flop when I *do* hit my set. For example, one of these loose players limps in in middle position with 63s and completely misses the flop. Even the bad ones will generally fold here, and I want to get the extra bet out of them before the flop, because I certainly won't get one out of them after the flop.

I think that while my pot odds of raising in the SB when 5 have already limped are good (6sb:1sb = 12sb:2sb, it's not 7.5:1 but i'll make up for it when i do hit my set), but maybe it's my implied odds that I have to worry about. Perhaps it is better to limp and see the flop cheaply, because obviously I am almost always folding unless I hit my set.


[ QUOTE ]
Also be carefull that you don't force yourself to overplay a medium pair. Let's say you raise 77 and the flop comes A56r, your likely to be tempted to play this hand way to long and ruin whatever you would have made when you flop a set. see pg 125 HEPFAP and then make sure to read the loose games section.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the extra advice. But I know in loose games where players will usually play any Ace that when the Ace flops, my hand is no good. As I said at the end of my post, I am aware that this sort of hand is either "hit the flop or fold" type of hand. I.E., get that 7 or fold.

It's extremely tempting to me to, when in the SB, just pay that fraction of a bet and see the flop for free. This is what I would in most circumstances do, ESPECIALLY if there were less limpers. However, I feel that 6:1 odds are fine for a set, so shouldn't 12:2 be good as well? That's why I am tempted to make a raise.

Thanks again for responding, Slavic. And I appreciate any other input on this. Am I on the right track here? If 5 limpers + BB to act after isn't enough for the raise here, then is 6 limpers? 7? Or in this situation, should I just always call and see that flop cheaply? Thanks /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-Brian

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
Well you are getting in that extra money before the flop so that when you do flop a set there is even more money in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

A bigger pot has two benefits.

1 - You will collect an extra bet from those players who limped but then fold on the flop (you mentioned this)

2 - By making the pot bigger, some of those players who would have folded on the flop will now call with middle or bottom pair, even though they are drawing nearly dead, so you can get even more bets out of them when you hit your set /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[pudley4]

If you don't have position, you can't make the "raise the turn then check behind" play. Here, the button was unbelievably weak. He should have absolutely bet the river after you checked. If your positions were reversed (you were the button, he was sb), and you raised his turn bet and checked the river, then you would have made a good play.

Also, if you think you are behind, you should not raise the button's bet. You should call and hope for more callers behind you. There are a few reasons:

1 - If you are drawing, you want more players in to pay you off when you hit.

2 - You don't want to pay more than necessary to draw.

3 - If you are ahead, a doube-bet is probably not needed to fold someone who would have drawn out on you. A gutshot or an overpair should fold for one bet anyway, and a flush draw shouldn't fold to the double bet.

Finally, you should have bet the turn /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[sattre]

Thanks to all who replied,
Obviously my opponent was weak. At $2/4, people just hate getting check-raised, so I figured I'd get the river for free. I thought that just calling would be alright to do, but not too many people had been paying to see the river. It seemed to always get down to 2-3 people, so I estimated that at most 2 people would've called his bet after checking (with 3 diamonds on the board). That was just a game-type decision, I guess. And I was still unsure that he had a flush, which was why I wanted to put a little pressure on him, and not let anyone else get a chance to catch. However, given the amount of outs that I had (less than 10), and an equal number of diamonds in the deck - guessing that 2 more opponents would've called, I should've check-called. Yeknom and Larry Joe are correct that check calling are the correct things to do if I don't hit my boat. Thanks guys,
/images/graemlins/grin.gif Sattre

[Homer]

I like that you came out firing on the flop. However, I don't like the turn check-raise, for the following reasons:

- If no one has a flush it will get checked through and you'll be giving the field a free card

- If someone has a flush you'll likely be reraised and will end up paying three bets to see the river.

I'd bet out with the intention of firing again on the river if not raised, and of calling the turn and check-calling the river if raised (against some players you can sure enough of a flush to check-fold the river, but in most cases you should get to showdown).

-- Homer

[sattre]

correction,
bet. call if I'm raised by anyone but a mouse.
one of these times I'll get it.
/images/graemlins/wink.gifSattre

[Homer]

bet. call if I'm raised by anyone but a mouse.

Call the turn no matter who raises. Whatever you do don't fold on the turn.

What I meant was that maybe you can check-fold the river if you don't fill up and the person who raised the turn wouldn't do so without having made a flush. 99.9% of the time you should call the turn raise and check-call the river.

-- Homer

[sattre]

yep - right after I wrote the fold to a mouse, I knew I looked like an idiot again. Obviously you call a raise on the turn. Then, you check and maybe call (depending on opponent) if you don't hit a boat. Do you think you'd check-raise if you hit your boat on the river?

[Homer]

Do you think you'd check-raise if you hit your boat on the river?

Depends on the opponent...

- Weak-tight = BET. If a player will check it through more than half the time on the river but will always call a bet, then betting is more profitable than checking with the intention of raising.

- Loose-aggressive = BET. You are betting here because even though a checkraise would be profitable, betting out is more profitable since your opponent is likely to raise with a flush allowing you to get three bets in.

- Most players in between = CHECK-RAISE. Most players will only call if you bet, but will bet most of the time when you check, and will pay off your subsequent raise. Hence, check-raising is better against these opponents.

-- Homer

[sattre]

thanks Homer,
I think in this case, I'd bet the river. This kid checked his K-high flush on the river after I check-raised the turn, so I'd have to bet it.
/images/graemlins/smile.gifSattre

[Homer]

I agree.

BTW, you should check out Theory of Poker if you haven't yet. In particular, there is a section about being heads-up at the end that will help you to answer questions like this.

-- Homer

[DcifrThs]

I'm new to this forum so hello all! It seems that there is clearly a lot of good opportunities at this table to take these folks for all their worth. if your read on the button, as someone who only bets quality hands/draws, then at that point the play is certainly to fold and not pay the river. My issue is not the rest of the hand's play however, but with that on the flop. you say

"I bet out at a 2-4 table, because everyone always calls anyways. I want to build a nice-sized pot."

This is wrong! building a nice size pot with all those callers only lengthens their odds and entices them to stay with a draw that will beat your set. what you should do is try to see who is on a real draw and who is not. accomplish this by checkraising since their odds won't be as good at that point. Then if the button guy is still with you and the Jd falls you can fold your hand comfortably.

Thanks for the cool forum and will somebody PLEASE let me know where some good games in or around WASHINGTON DC are.

[sattre]

I'm not too concerned with a set being beat when the flop comes 8-7-2. Most of these people are in on trash hands, and if they have a pair on the board, another pair makes me a boat. I'm not comfortably going to fold my hand when that 3rd diamond comes, because odds are my hand is still good. There's no way I'd check the flop then be fearful that someone made a better hand than mine - just a bad strategy.

Homer - yeah, I have Theory of Poker. I just thought I'd continue the discussion until all points were covered. Thanks,
/images/graemlins/smile.gifSattre

[slavic]

Brian

The game of poker is about exploiting an advantage and making other players make mistakes. In this case rasing in the SB makes a great situation become somewhat marginal. You are getting 13 to 1 to complete the SB here, those are great direct odds and the implide odds with 6 other callers are huge. Now let's say you raise, we can no longer count on the BB so we are looking more like 8.6 to 1. I keep looking at those numbers and thinking not only have you given away some of your pre-flop edge but you have also cut down on your implide odds. To add to this you make it correct for other players to draw out on you post flop, thus limiting yor opponents mistakes.

Remember my advice is free and worth every penny of it. See the loose game section of HEPFAP.

[JTG51]

Then if the button guy is still with you and the Jd falls you can fold your hand comfortably.

This is very bad advice. You should never fold sets before the river, and folding them on the river is so rarely correct that it should be anything but comfortable.

[Homer]

This is wrong! building a nice size pot with all those callers only lengthens their odds and entices them to stay with a draw that will beat your set.

I agree with betting out on the flop. If you checkraise the flop you will win a greater percentage of the time, but you will win a much, much smaller pot. In the long run, you'll be better off betting into a multiway field and building a huge pot when you flop a set. Most of the two-thirds of the time you don't fill you'll win without improvement, and the other third of the time you'll fill and will win every (well, almost) time.

-- Homer

[Mike Haven]

Brian,

as you have stated, it is hit or fold in the circumstances you describe - you are not betting to create an image at this point in the hand

in the long run if you are calling with your medium pair in a 2-4 game you are paying $15 before you hit your set

if you are raising you are paying $30 before you hit your set

in either case if there were no further bets you would break even once you did hit your set and win back the $15 or the $30 in the pot

therefore it would be a pointless exercise to raise (or call, come to that!)

in other words, it is the money you win after the flop, after you hit, that makes you your profit in this particular case

so, do you think that if you raise pre-flop and bet and raise post-flop you will win more money post-flop than you will win if you call pre-flop and bet and raise post-flop?

i suggest that your raise pre-flop, especially from the blinds, will make other players much more wary of you, and that you are likely to win more money post-flop, when it matters, by only calling pre-flop

finally, in terms of personal comfort zones, as i've explained why it is pointless to raise, there is also no point in running your money down by twice as much (or three times as much if you cause a re-raise) while you are "waiting" for the hit - as more money has been "invested", (waiting for the eventual harvest), you may become uncomfortable with the state of your bankroll and hence not play as well as you should in other situations where, say, you need to raise rather than call

imo

[elysium]

hi sat
before semi-bluff check-raising on the turn, you need to determine whether your opponents are the type that might lay-down a baby flush or any other hand that beats yours. you need to realize that the play you are making is not a value play. you're not building a big pot. you are also not thinning the field. you are attempting to get the fold right now on the turn. you must have some expectation of doing just that, and the way that this hand has been played, you are just within those guidelines. but you wouldn't be if your image was not solid. you must be perceived by your opponents as a non-semi-bluffing solid.

as far as semi-bluffing for a free river show-down, you can do that; but the above listed prerequisites must be met, especially your image.

while your inmage may be correct here, and while the hand may have been played in a manner that gives you reasonable expectation of getting the fold, in addition to the free-show-down, the opponents positioned between you and the button bettor do not qualify for this semi-bluff check-raise. they are loose and therefore, not only won't they fold, but they also may reraise you. additionally, these opponents will call your completed boat the 1 in about 3 or 4 times you get there. since they improve not only your current odds, but also your implied odds, and since check-raising won't likely drive them out, you can save a bet and a possible reraise and just bet out here. if one of the loose opponents between you and the button had raised, if the button also perceived that opponent as loose, you could have been facing having to call 2 cold yourself. and you would have had to call, although with all the potential raising that very well could have broken out, your odds would have gone down considerably, and you would have to consider the possibility of drawing nearly dead to a higher set.

fortunately, none of those things happened, and as it turned out, you played optimally. but remember something, playing optimally in hindsight is not synonymous with having played correctly with the highest ev. you had all the right conditions in place to semi-bluff check-raise the turn except one; the loose opponents positioned between you and the bettor. and as you see, just having one condition unmet before making a semi-bluff check-raise turns that semi-bluff into a bet in this instance. you played optimally here, but the next time around you will need to have non-loose opponents in MP. here, you would actually prefer solid opponents MP to these loose ones.

bet out on the turn, and call any raise. if you have a very good read on your opponents on your left, and you see one of them reaching for his chips, remind the dealer that you haven't bet yet, and bet. that should deter a raise. bet out decisively. you don't want to get raised. unfortunately, you must still bet out though. you can't risk allowing a free-card that's beats you to come off for free.

[sattre]

Absoltuely right, elysium. Thanks. I'm a little newer, so I'm experimenting with my play, and obviously the conditions weren't there to do the check-raise. It's nice to see the image factor involved in someone's interpretation, not just pot odds, etc. Thanks,
/images/graemlins/cool.gifSattre

[Homer]

It's nice to see the image factor involved in someone's interpretation, not just pot odds, etc.

I don't mean to take anything away from elysium's post, but I don't think image means a lick in a 2/4 game. You're much better off understanding every nuance of pot/implied/effective odds than you are worrying about what other people think about you.

-- Homer

[sattre]

I don't know, Homer. I think my image is of a solid player at $2/4, but I also have the image of someone who will put on a move. I know that pot odds, etc. are generally the correct strategy to play optimally at a low level, plain and simple. I just think it's another variable that is often ignored.