Retard in the Ten Seat. Literally.

[sam h]

CA 12-24 and I'm killing the table when the floorman seats this funny looking guy in the ten seat, telling him slowly - the way people talk to children - that bets are four chips on the flop and eight on the turn. I thought it was some inside joke until the new player opened his mouth. He was very clearly retarded/mentally disabled/whatever PC term is in vogue right now. He said he'd never played above 3-6 before and I believed it since he couldn't even read his own hand and didn't seem to even understand when the action was on him, when one could raise, that one had to put in chips to see the flop, etc.

Some of the other players were kind of smiling quietly, a few were bitching at him for slowing down the game, and a few others were egging him on to buy more chips, especially this old guy in the nine seat who was a dead ringer for Peter Fonda's bodyguard in The Limey.

I almost got up and left. But an orbit later he busted out.

Is it silly for me to have qualms about taking a retarded guy's money when I don't have any at all about taking money off gambloooors?

[Acesover8s]

You bring up an interesting point. Myself I would probably think about it until I made myself uncomfortable and have to leave the table.

It is impossible to know this person's situation to know what the right thing to do is.

There is an EXTREMELY interesting thread on RPG right now written by a man who has Asperger's syndrome which is a form of autism.

[Dynasty]

I don't think I'd leave simply because this guy joined the table. However, I don't need money so much that I'd do anything to exploit the situation.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

An interesting philosophical question about what constitutes free will. People with Down's Syndrome have been able to hold down jobs, live independently and even raise children. I also believe that they are capable of understanding the rules of games.

That being said, some individuals with cerebral palsey appear to others to be completely mentally incompetent while in reality, they are as mentally sharp as any of us. It's just their interface with the world that's screwed up. I suspect that this may be what you witnessed. He may well have been a person with CP that has played on line before and was just making typical newbie mistakes. I find it hard to believe that someone with the mental capacity of a 5 year old would even have the wherewithal to try to sit at a poker table.

[Inthacup]

I find it hard to believe that someone with the mental capacity of a 5 year old would even have the wherewithal to try to sit at a poker table.

It didn't stop Vince Van Patten

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I knew I'd posted an awesome straight line the minute the post went up. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Mike Gallo]

Fred G Sanford (two plus two lurker) and I played at the Trop in AC a few months back and a guys sits down with Tourettes syndrome. This guy is ticking and shaking like a madman. I couldnt look at Fred with out cracking up.

This player went to the pink game and ran over it.

I saw this player not that long ago running over a $15-$30 game at the Taj.

Don't let appearances deceive you.

I find it hard to believe that someone with the mental capacity of a 5 year old would even have the wherewithal to try to sit at a poker table.
It has never stopped me from playing /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Michael

[sam h]

He goes three bets with an old guy on a flop of QJ9. The turn is an 8 and he check calls. The river is a blank and he check calls. The old guy turns up QT and slides the cards towards the board, declaring a straight. The ten seat turns up KJ and also declares a straight. The dealer explains to him that he needed a ten for a straight. The ten seat points towards the ten from the other guy's hand, which is now about nine inches from the board, and says that he has a ten.

Another time he asked, in a clearly serious manner, whether he was allowed to look at his cards again during a hand.

I don't know enough about Down's Syndrome or Cerebral Palsey to say whether he was afflicted with either condition, but these certainly weren't newbie mistakes. I agree that it's an interesting question of free will and mental competence.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

With CP you'd see reduced motor skills and garbled apeech. Down's gives the person the "retarded" facial feature.

It might make me uncomfortable with the cardroom for allowing him to play (but how do they say no?), and while I tend to agree with Dynasty in that I wouldn't go out of my way to take advantage of him, how much different would that be than making profit-maximizing plays against clueless but ostensible mentally-competent players. I certainly don't think I'd leave the table because the cardroom seated him there.

[Rushmore]

Dynasty suggests "not exploiting the situation." I posit that this is oxymoronic (as exploiting situations is exactly what poker is all about).

If I were at the table and felt uncomfortable with this situation, I would either ask for a button and lobby until it was over, get a table change, or just go eat lunch.

Therefore, I would choose one of these options, because life is WAY too short to take money from retarded people.

Some of us still cling to what remains of our--heh heh--Judeo-Christian ethic. Call us crazy.

[Rushmore]

how much different would that be than making profit-maximizing plays against clueless but ostensible mentally-competent players

No way. No freakin way. Nope. This question should have been censored. This is unacceptable. For this thread to have called into question our very way of life is unacceptable!!

No. I do not consider these two things to be in any way related.

OK. I overreacted a little. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Easy E]

I give you props for being bothered by it. I wouldn't like it either.

However, when you think about it, is it all that different from taking advantage of:

a) a newbie?
b) a drunk?
c) someone on tilt?
d) an a-hole that you try to put on tilt because you can and s/he deserves it?

On the face of it, I think it is... but then again....

[LuckyBellar]

This situation comes up in varing degrees all the time. Each of us finds our own personal level of acceptance. I would not have played in the situation described. For me life is too short to try and win money from someone who clearly does not understand the game, either a new player or someone who is mentally handicapped. I would however, take money from a drunk or someone on tilt as I view them as chosing to be where they are.

[microlimitaddict]

indeed i sometimes get a similar feeling by the drunks who clearly are not going to remember anything from their session.
my logic is the same for these guys as for any newbie, gambling addict or bad player.....they are going to give their money to somebody and it might as well be me. if i leave based on principle this does not stop them from losing their money.

Remember, we don't know their full situation....he could possibly have received a huge inheritance from his zillion-aire uncle and can afford to lose the money. Maybe his mental condition is the result of a head injury (i'm not kidding here...it happens) and he received mounds of compensation.

now the reasonable individuals who seem to have addiction problems who say they HAVE to have this money to pay the rent...that's a little bit different...I'll hope that they get up and leave....but it's hard to encourage them to do so, even for their own good, because they won't really appreciate you butting in.

once played at a BJ table with a similar person..maybe slightly better off then the guy you describe but he was clearly well below-average IQ.
He kept turning his cards over and saying "Blackjack!!" (it was a pitch hand-held game) even when he held 7-5 or something. I don't think he was doing it as a joke...he had to be continually reminded that he really didn't have a BJ.
He would also keep hitting and hitting, even after he busted out...then the dealers paid more attention to the cards he was holding to make sure he didn't over-hit.
What was amazing was that the guy was winning for the longest time...I saw him hit his soft-21 and turn it into a 16 only to have the dealer bust out. Every time he hit his hard 18 he would draw an A-3.
He kept telling everyone "I'm not really very smart" in a very slow drawl to excuse his ignorance.
He kept picking up his cards with both hands and touching his chips (both no-no's at the BJ table) and the dealer was really scrambling to try to enforce the rules of the game with this guy. Please note, he was drinking water. This appeared to me to be a mental condition and not an alcohol induced one.
But, he was playing green chips and started with $500. He got up to $1500 or so but I think he eventually busted out as was inevitable with his ability or lack thereof (I left the table because he was slowing the game down so much so I'm not sure). It looked as though he perhaps could actually afford to lose the money...although I have no earthly idea one way or the other.

An interesting ethical dilemma you raise to be sure.

[BruceZ]

I figure if you feel sorry for someone who really shouldn't be gambling, the best thing you can do for them is to take all their money as quickly as possible so they give up and never come back. If most everyone goes easy on them, chances are they will play more often and lose much more money in the long run. Someone's going to take their money, so it might as well be you. So never hesitate to take anyone's money. It's a win-win situation.

[John Ho]

I don't think I'd want to play with him. Taking money off people who are making legit attempts to do the same from you is fine and great...but this would be like taking candy from a baby.

Life is not so tough that I need to take advantage of a retarded guy.

[Jeffage]

I honestly don't think winning his money would be "taking advantage" of him. You didn't find him wandering the street and encourage him to sit in a poker game. You're in it, he's there, he's fair game. If his two cards beat yours, he will get shipped the money. That's enough for me to play him just as I would anyone else. He made a choice to play, he didn't show up at the casino magically. The amount of money may be an allotted amount he has to enjoy himself. Do you think he'd feel better losing XXX dollars or if everyone left because they pitied him and there was no game?

Just some thoughts,
Jeff

[nicky g]

"The amount of money may be an allotted amount he has to enjoy himself. Do you think he'd feel better losing XXX dollars or if everyone left because they pitied him and there was no game?"

I agree. Also, is "retard" an acceptable description in the US? It's considered extremely offensive over here.

[Jeffage]

"Also, is "retard" an acceptable description in the US? It's considered extremely offensive over here."

No it isn't, and is considered derogatory...I too find it somewhat offensive that some would leave the table bc they "feel bad" for him but would then call him a retard behind his back. Oh well...off to work unfortunately.

Jeff

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

LOL. Sorry if I sounded like I was questioning our way of life. Once again, all we have is an incomplete picture. For all we know, the person in question was not risking an important sum of money and just sitting at the table was fun.

Regardless of our emotional reaction to the situation, the responsibility has to rest with management. You can't lead the lamb into the tiger cage and then condemn the tigers for eating dinner.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Also, is "retard" an acceptable description in the US? It's considered extremely offensive over here.

Oh, cut the PC crap. In this specific case, it accurately describes Sam's perception of the situation. Had he used "mentally challenged person" instead, that euphemism would have clouded what he saw, and the debate over what those words meant would have gotten in the way of the real point.

Besides, from my discourse with Sam on this board, I don't think he's a malicious person.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

For me life is too short to try and win money from someone who clearly does not understand the game

Interesting. From my perspective, life's too short to *not* do it.

[nicky g]

Fine. Next time I tell a story involving a gay woman or an Hispanic man, I'll call them dykes and spics just so as not to cloud the issue.
It's not a question of being malicious; it's one of carelessly using terms that are guaranteed to hurt affected people's feelings if they overhear it. Why is it that mental health is the one area where it's still ok to use out and out insulting terms?

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Perhaps "retarded person" would be better, I agree. However, there is no "right" to not be offended.

Where is Lenny Bruce now that we need him? /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Rushmore]

I never, in my wildest dreams, expected to see anything so absolutely sensible posted here.

Thanks, Kurnson!

P.S. Lenny Bruce is dead. He couldn't tolerate the state of the world, so he shot dope til he turned up cold and dead on a bathroom floor.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

P.S. Lenny Bruce is dead.

Yeah, I know. Too bad. I ask the same question about Barry Goldwater when politics frustrate me.

[Rushmore]

I knew that you knew that Lenny Bruce is dead. My point was that his oversensitivity to everyone else's hypersensitivity seems have killed him. He could not believe that he wasn't allowed to say words. No, he didn't shout FIRE! in a movie theater. He just said that Jackie was RUNNING AWAY, not gathering up pieces of her husband's skull and brain. I guess it was a National Security Issue.

Sorry. Almost got, uh, political.

[HDPM]

Some of the other players were kind of smiling quietly, a few were bitching at him for slowing down the game, and a few others were egging him on to buy more chips, especially this old guy in the nine seat who was a dead ringer for Peter Fonda's bodyguard in The Limey.




[/ QUOTE ]


This is the paragraph of the post that both cracks me up and makes me ill. These are the people we play with. Unreal. Did anybody talk about jacking him in the parking lot next time? Or trying to run a scam on him outside of poker? Jeez, if you can't rob the elderly, infirm, or otherwise feeble, who can ya rob? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[ACBob]

Sam,

Was this at California Grand? If so, how did you like the game?

Bob Lewis

[Aces McGee]

Would you play your normal game, or would you lay off check-raising and other "tricks?"

Aces McGee

[chesspain]

[BruceZ]

I'd offer some juicy sounding proposition bets.

[Oski]

I find it disturbing that at this point in the thread, the fact seat 10 is called a "retard" seems to be causing more debate than the fact the floorman sat a person in his condition at a 12/24 game, when the gentleman said he'd never played above 3/6. I think a not-so-very fine line had been crossed, and someone at the table should have said something and had the floorman reconsider the situation.

As far as PC goes, see how the substance of the debate is obscured when one is more worried about what one says as opposed to what one means? It gets tedious

I agree with John Ho's comment.

[Oski]

[ QUOTE ]
I give you props for being bothered by it. I wouldn't like it either.

However, when you think about it, is it all that different from taking advantage of:

a) a newbie?
b) a drunk?
c) someone on tilt?
d) an a-hole that you try to put on tilt because you can and s/he deserves it?

On the face of it, I think it is... but then again....

[/ QUOTE ]

If a 15 year-old girl is drinking in a bar, is it okay to take her home and "take advantage of her" ... no, just because she is a a place where certain behavior is accepted and expected does not mean THAT individual belongs there.

Drunks, newbies, people on tilt are suffering "defects" that are commonly associated with the principal activity the individual is involved in...poker. These conditions are found at almost every poker game, in every poker casino. In the case of a mentally-challenged person, it is highly unusual and just like finding the willing 15 year-old in the bar, YOU MUST acknowledge you have some duties as a "normal" adult to intercede or to see that a thougtful decision is made in regards to the "fish out of water."

Personally, there is no dilemma here ... some things you just cannot do.

[Easy E]

whether "discriminating" against their right to play poker, no matter how bad they may be, is an issue here is a question.

that said, I'd say something to the player or the floor, depending on how the person seemed.

[crockpot]

some hispanic women i know are very offended that you believe only men are qualified to be called spics. i believe you should apologize so as not to cloud the issue.

[baggins]

i say tip the floorman...

[sam h]

Jeff,

I probably should have sacrificed a little snap in the title and employed the phrase "retarded person." On this I agree with you.

But it's a little laughable that you "find it somewhat offensive" that I used this term AND would leave the table (which of course I didn't do) because I felt bad for him (which of course I never said was the case). I mean what specific combinations of un-PC words and hypothetical actions and feelings does it take to offend you? One would think the words themselves would be enough. Or is it only offensive because you don't have qualms about taking money from the mentally retarded if they sit down at the table of their own free will and you need to invent some kind of contradiction in the actions of others (me) to justify your own feelings? Just curious.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Sam:

I haven't read the other posts, but I usually change tables (or even quit) when something like this happens, and it usually occurs when a drunk is in the game. The problem is that on the one hand they play very poorly and lose their money, but they also slow the game down so much that I don't think it's worth the aggravation to stay there.

As for feeling guilty, suppose you were that person, you would want any chance to be independent and to make your own decisions. With that being the case, if he wants to sit down and play, then why not?

Best wishes,
Mason

[Rushmore]

DISCLAIMER: I have NEVER been accused of being Dr. Phil.

Here's the question: would you take candy from a baby?

If not, would you take money from a child (oh, say--12 yrs. old)?

Well, retarded people, through no fault or choosing of their own, often have a mental capacity beneath that of a 12 yr old.

Drunks, on the other hand, have a WILLFUL, SELF-IMPOSED mental capacity diminished to whatever level they deem fit to sink to.

Unless, of course, they are also retarded. Then, I guess, it's a question of, uh, I, uh...

What was I saying?

Oh, yeah. Don't take the money of the mentally handicapped. It's wrong and bad. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[JTG51]

I'm sure many (I'm not sure if I'm one of those many) would argue that a drunk who happens to be an alcoholic is just as handicapped as the retarded guy.

[Rushmore]

And without getting too touchy-feely, I can tell you from a GREAT DEAL OF PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that this is not true, contrary to what the well-intended monkeys on television try to tell us.

We certainly seem to have constructed a beautiful Shangri-La where no one has to take any responsibilty for anything they do.

"Don't Beat Yourself Up?!"

Everyone oughta do himself a BIG favor and beat the living hell out of himself.

But let's all stop a little short of Tyler Durden. /images/graemlins/wink.gif