When would you release this hand?

[onegymrat]

$6-$12. Unusually aggressive game mainly due to three maniacs. Flops consistently costing three or four bets to see the flop. 9-handed. I am dealt A /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gifUTG and limp in. Would you limp in here with the situation described or raise or not play?

UTG+1 (very aggressive chaser) raises. One MP, SB and BB(solid player-questionable preflop choices but great postflop) all call. I call the raise. Five to the flop.

Flop: Q /images/graemlins/club.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Checked around to me. I bet. UTG+1 raises. MP and SB folds and BB calls. Would you release the hand here? I call anyway.

Turn: A /images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB checked, as did I. UTG+1 bets. BB checkraises! Would you release the hand here? I clearly see that BB has a queen but don't put him on A-Q. I call the two bets as did UTG+1. My outs are clubs and two aces and didn't like my decision at all. Something told me my club outs may not be good.

River: 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB bets and I fold. UTG+1 calls. BB turns over Q-5o for the boat. UTG+1 mucks without showing. This hand cost me a lot more money than I needed to lose. When would you have released the hand? Before calling preflop, after preflop raise, check-fold flop, turn?

[asdf1234]

I don't think A9s is really a hand you want to be playing for several bets before the flop, as it relies on implied odds for profitability and those get killed by all the money going into the pot before the flop. In the type of game you described from UTG, I'd fold it.

You got the flop you wanted, so you're not going anywhere. It's unlikely that you're dead yet (I know you were drawing mighty thin at this point, but in general), so you're sticking around with your nut flush draw.

Betting the flop is okay, although I'd be less inclined to do it on a paired board, especially with an aggressive player to my immediate left who might knock people out with a raise.

The turn, if you are positive that you're up against a made boat, then you need to fold, but I'm not really convinced here, plus you picked up a couple of extra outs with the aces. You've got proper odds to call, discounting a couple of clubs that fill someone.

River, there's not much you can do but pitch it in the muck and be glad that your flush didn't come.

And to think, you could have saved yourself so much had you just folded before the flop /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Rick Nebiolo]

Gym Rat,

You wrote: ”$6-$12. Unusually aggressive game mainly due to three maniacs. Flops consistently costing three or four bets to see the flop. 9-handed. I am dealt A 9 UTG and limp in. Would you limp in here with the situation described or raise or not play?”

There are two problems with playing this hand BTF. Although the average hand of the maniacs won’t be as good as yours, the best maniac’s hand probably is. In addition to the maniacs, you figure to be up against the best one or two hands of the rest of the field, and these hands will usually dominate you (either ace better kicker or a pair better than nines). The fact that you are suited isn’t worth quite so much when you are paying three or four bets to see the flop against three or four opponents. You want bigger cards (preferably suited) and of course big pairs.

IMO, as you become a better player, this game isn’t quite as good as a game with only one maniac and some poor to mediocre players. Multiple maniacs prevent you from entering many pots, and this takes you and your skill largely out of the game.

”UTG+1 (very aggressive chaser) raises. One MP, SB and BB(solid player-questionable preflop choices but great postflop) all call. I call the raise. Five to the flop.

Flop: Q Q 5

Checked around to me. I bet. UTG+1 raises. MP and SB folds and BB calls. Would you release the hand here? I call anyway.”

You have to at least call. The question is do you reraise, which may drive out the aggressive chaser (even a maniac will have trouble calling a reraise without the queen).

”Turn: A

BB checked, as did I. UTG+1 bets. BB checkraises! Would you release the hand here? I clearly see that BB has a queen but don't put him on A-Q. I call the two bets as did UTG+1. My outs are clubs and two aces and didn't like my decision at all. Something told me my club outs may not be good.”

Your club outs will sometimes be dead but you are essentially pot-stuck now.

River: 7

BB bets and I fold. UTG+1 calls. BB turns over Q-5o for the boat. UTG+1 mucks without showing. This hand cost me a lot more money than I needed to lose. When would you have released the hand? Before calling preflop, after preflop raise, check-fold flop, turn?

I release the hand BTF. But having not done so, I like the river fold.

Regards,

Rick

[ResidentParanoid]

[ QUOTE ]
Unusually aggressive game mainly due to three maniacs. I am dealt A 9 UTG and limp in. Would you limp in here with the situation described or raise or not play?



[/ QUOTE ]

I would fold in this situation pre-flop UTG. You don't want to pay 3 or 4 SB before the flop for this hand, especially if you don't know how many will see the flop.

Once you have the four-flush on the flop, I would just check-call until I hit my hand.

Good player hit a boat, so you're almost sure to lose money on this hand with the maniacs there. Once the solid player comes to life, you are always in trouble unless you hit your hand, and in this case even if you did hit.

One of the reasons you don't want to have a pure drawing hand here is that you want to know you're going to the river with something (at least big card strength) to show against maniacs who will raise and re-raise with little or nothing. With a solid player leading the way against the maniacs, it can get expensive.

[Homer]

$6-$12. Unusually aggressive game mainly due to three maniacs. Flops consistently costing three or four bets to see the flop. 9-handed. I am dealt A9s UTG and limp in. Would you limp in here with the situation described or raise or not play?

No way, I'd fold. This is a bad game texture for limping UTG with A9s.

Checked around to me. I bet. UTG+1 raises. MP and SB folds and BB calls. Would you release the hand here? I call anyway.

I would check-call or check-raise the flop. I don't like betting because what will happen most of the time is UTG+1 will raise and it will become heads-up. It would be better if you check, UTG+1 bets, the other players call or fold, then you either call or raise depending on how many players are left in the hand. Most of the time I would just call with the paired board.

Given that you bet, UTG+1 raised and BB coldcalled, you have a very easy call when the action gets back to you. You are getting 15:1, closing the action, with the nut flush draw. You are only 4:1 against getting there on the turn. So, you are getting way more than you need, even though once in a while your flush card will fill up UTG+1 or BB (or if you are already drawing dead).

BB checked, as did I. UTG+1 bets. BB checkraises! Would you release the hand here? I clearly see that BB has a queen but don't put him on A-Q. I call the two bets as did UTG+1. My outs are clubs and two aces and didn't like my decision at all. Something told me my club outs may not be good.

No, I would call. You're getting 6:1 on the call, assuming UTG+1 does not reraise, which is enough since you have up to 10 outs (8 clubs and 2 aces) making you 3.6:1 against improving on the river.

Sometimes UTG+1 will reraise the turn, sometimes an Ace will cause you to chop with UTG+1, sometimes you will be drawing dead to BB's full house and sometimes your flush card will cause BB to fill -- all that being said you're getting enough of an overlay to call two bets cold.

When would you have released the hand?

On the river.

-- Homer

[Homer]

Another quick thought -- in this kind of game you are better off limping UTG with a small pair than with Axs. This is because with Axs you will still be drawing after the flop most of the time, whereas with a small pair you will either flop a set and start collecting from the aggressive players or will fold. Axs prefers a loose-passive game whereas small pairs prefer a loose-aggressive game (but not so aggressive that is costs you lots of bets to see the flop, just enough so that you'll collect a lot of bets postflop).

-- Homer

[onegymrat]

Thank you to all. This hand is a perfect example when you're not paying attention in a highly aggressive game, get a normally playable hand, and limp in when you know you shouldn't. My biggest mistake was to have played at all. Thanks again for the awesome insight.

[elysium]

hi one
in this type of aggressive game, coming in with A9 from UTG is a terrible idea. you need big cards. don't attach importance to suits because you will be forced to pay the full price to chase. never play chase cards in these type games.