A question about how to play big unsuited cards

[Tosh]

I'm talking about hands like AJ, KT etc.

Here a few examples about what I'd like to know.

Say I'm the button with A /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in a typical 3/6 game. UTG who I know to be a tight player raises. A couple of players cold call this raise and the rest fold. What do I do? Raise or Fold? If I raise I will probably knock out the blinds and if the UTG has raised with a hand like JJ I will probably have it checked to me on the flop. But if this player is tight maybe he'll only raise UTG with AA, KK and AK in which case I'm in bad shape. Generally I've been raising in this situation but it has seemed to cost me money and I'm really starting to lean towards folding. How about AJ in the same situation? Thats an automatic fold against a good player's raise right ?

How about if there is no raise and I'm on the button with AJo after 4 limpers. I'm not overly keen in putting in 2 bets when I'm going to have 5/6 opponents and my raise simply isn't going to knock anyone out except perhaps the blinds. My normal play here is to just call and see what the flop does for me. With 2 limpers I would raise.

How about hands like AJ, AT and KJ from UTG and UTG+1? Are any of them playable this early ?

I'm interested to see what the general feelings are. When I first started playing I would gotten excited about seeing A /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif dealt to me but at the moment I am just looking at it and wondering what the hell I'm supposed to do.

[JohnShaft]

I'll give you my angle on the AQo one.
First of all by pointing you to John Feeney's superb "Inside the Poker Mind" and his AQ test which addresses this very issue.

First lets assume there's an UTG raise and no callers. It pretty much becomes fold or raise. If he is a tight-solid EP raiser then you're in bad shape against most hands and it's probably just worth folding. If you see him raise loose, or the open raise comes in from MP or later (and you figure he loosens up some then) then you can try 3-betting.

If it's an EP raise and two cold callers, you're in pretty much worse shape (maybe not if they are horrible though...) so it's even more of a fold situation, unless it's suited.

The key is knowing how solid the raiser is. And I find many at the 3/6 online aren't that solid...

[Joe Tall]

Say I'm the button with A Q in a typical 3/6 game. UTG who I know to be a tight player raises. A couple of players cold call this raise and the rest fold. What do I do? Raise or Fold? If I raise I will probably knock out the blinds and if the UTG has raised with a hand like JJ I will probably have it checked to me on the flop. But if this player is tight maybe he'll only raise UTG with AA, KK and AK in which case I'm in bad shape. Generally I've been raising in this situation but it has seemed to cost me money and I'm really starting to lean towards folding. How about AJ in the same situation? Thats an automatic fold against a good player's raise right ?

Yup, easy fold. Unless you have AJs and want to 3-bet a fellow 2+2er to post about it.

How about if there is no raise and I'm on the button with AJo after 4 limpers. I'm not overly keen in putting in 2 bets when I'm going to have 5/6 opponents and my raise simply isn't going to knock anyone out except perhaps the blinds. My normal play here is to just call and see what the flop does for me. With 2 limpers I would raise.

I call and see what the flop offers, especially when there are a lot of Any-ace limpers.

How about hands like AJ, AT and KJ from UTG and UTG+1? Are any of them playable this early ?

No.

I'm interested to see what the general feelings are. When I first started playing I would gotten excited about seeing A J dealt to me but at the moment I am just looking at it and wondering what the hell I'm supposed to do.

You're on transition to the next level.

Peace,
Larry Joe

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
Say I'm the button with A Q in a typical 3/6 game. UTG who I know to be a tight player raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your very likely dominated here, folding is a good choice.

[ QUOTE ]
How about hands like AJ, AT and KJ from UTG and UTG+1? Are any of them playable this early ?


[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on the game. Typically I just muck em. Sometimes If game conditions are right, I'll raise with AJo though.

[ QUOTE ]
How about if there is no raise and I'm on the button with AJo after 4 limpers. I'm not overly keen in putting in 2 bets when I'm going to have 5/6 opponents and my raise simply isn't going to knock anyone out except perhaps the blinds. My normal play here is to just call and see what the flop does for me. With 2 limpers I would raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see anything wrong with this line of play.

Stu

[Mike Gallo]

If a solid player raises ahead of you fold because you now have reverse implied odds. You almost always will hold a dominated hand if you call a solid early position raiser.

How about hands like AJ, AT and KJ from UTG and UTG+1? Are any of them playable this early ? My advice fold them except for in the most passive of games until you become a dominant post flop player. Suited thats a different argument. Offsuit you should almost always fold in early position but in the easiest of games. Those hands finish second best too many times. Don't forget you still have eight players to act behind you. If you can't stand a raise, you should raise yourself. Since you can't raise with the hand, FOLD.

Let us know how you make out. Just because they look pretty, doesnt mean you have to play them.

Michael

[SoBeDude]

How about hands like AJ, AT and KJ from UTG and UTG+1? Are any of them playable this early ?

NO

According to poker tracker, I'm making money with KJo in every position except UTG, and there I'm only losing a few pennies. But my sample size for KJo in UTG is quite small. I have a feeling I can play it profitably there as well. Time will tell.

in EP I always play KJo with a raise. But I only play it up front when my EP raises are getting respect, and I'm only getting one or two callers. Table image matters with this hand.

-Scott

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
According to poker tracker, I'm making money with KJo in every position except UTG, and there I'm only losing a few pennies. But my sample size for KJo in UTG is quite small. I have a feeling I can play it profitably there as well. Time will tell.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be curious to know how many occurences of KJo you have in each EP position in your poker tracker database. If its only a small number of occurences in each position your data is not yet reliable enough to substantiate your conclusions. Also are there any positions(besides UTG) in which you are losing money with this hand?

Stu

[Tosh]

From the responses I've had its clear that the AQo hand is a bit of a leak at the moment, so I'll adjust that.

I would never really play AJo, KJo or ATo when theres been a raise so playing UTG again seems weak.

The more I play the tighter I seem to be. This is not a particularly fun game online it must be said.

[Nottom]

I'm really surprised by the nearly unanimous mucking of AJo from UTG. I'd be scared of a game where I can't play this hand profitably from EP.

[Homer]

Say I'm the button with AQo in a typical 3/6 game. UTG who I know to be a tight player raises. A couple of players cold call this raise and the rest fold. What do I do? Raise or Fold?

How tight is the tight player? If his standards are like yours then you should probably fold, even with all the coldcallers. If his standards are a little looser than yours then you should coldcall. I would never reraise.

How about AJ in the same situation? Thats an automatic fold against a good player's raise right?

Absolutely.

How about if there is no raise and I'm on the button with AJo after 4 limpers. I'm not overly keen in putting in 2 bets when I'm going to have 5/6 opponents and my raise simply isn't going to knock anyone out except perhaps the blinds. My normal play here is to just call and see what the flop does for me. With 2 limpers I would raise.

This is the way I play it as well.

How about hands like AJ, AT and KJ from UTG and UTG+1? Are any of them playable this early?

Assuming a typical online low-limit game:

AJo - Almost always playable
AJs - Always playable

ATo/KJo - Never playable
ATs/KJs - Almost always playable

-- Homer

[Homer]

I'm really surprised by the nearly unanimous mucking of AJo from UTG. I'd be scared of a game where I can't play this hand profitably from EP.

Ditto. If I'm in a game where I don't feel comfortable playing AJo in EP, I'm finding a new game.

I'm assuming these posters have the same opinion about KQo?

-- Homer

[rkiray]

I usually call with AJo UTG. If the game is very tight or my raises are getting alot of respect, I'll raise with it. In response to Tosh, this game is fun on-line. Play 2 tables at the same time. If you are playing tight, this should not be a problem, and you will be able to play much more than in a B&M just because you are dealt so many hands.

[ChipWrecked]

You might want to do some scrounging in the archives here and at RGP. You'll find lots of debate about AQo and AJo early.

I go with the texture. If it's passive, I'm happy to limp with them. You'll get action from weak kickers... if I suspect that's what's happening, I try to make it hurt for them to suck out on me. If I get reraised, I usually drop.

[XlgJoe]

I have a slight difference in opinion of your rankings of AJo and ATo. It doesn’t seem right that you can almost always play AJo yet never play ATo. They rank very close to each other in simulations (for whatever they’re worth) against varying amount of players. It doesn’t seem there can be that many hands that AJo outplays that ATo wouldn’t also do well with.

I only disagree with the huge difference in the two. Myself I seldom play ATo UTG but I also don’t play AJo almost always (maybe about 50% and sometimes with a raise).

[Tosh]

In general I'm happy playing AJo for one bet. But I'm not overly happy about putting in 2 or more with a hand that could in trouble right from the start. I haven't been throwing AQo away but I have definitely been getting a bad retun on my bets with it.

I know suited big cards are very different and I'm happy playing them in any position.

The problem I have with playing 2 games at once is my internet connection is generally too slow to do so.

[Tosh]

The other hand I have been wondering about is A9o. Is this ever playable in a 10 handed ring game ? I've noticed places listing it as a playable hand in late position but is it really any better than any other Ace-rag hand ?

[CrackerZack]

I tend to raise AJo in LP to try to buy the button. I hate this hand with people behind me, but acting last, its much easier to go forward. For an extra SB, if i can get the button, its money well spent. On the button, I raise about 80% of the time.

AQo and AJo is an autofold to a raise from a tight player UTG. Cold callers or not, you're just in bad shape here almost every time.

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming a typical online low-limit game:

AJo - Almost always playable
AJs - Always playable

ATo/KJo - Never playable
ATs/KJs - Almost always playable


[/ QUOTE ]

except for very EP, I play all these hands but ATo and KJo, if I'm first in from EMP and on, I play them all. I'll raise 2 or less limpers with ATo almost every time and if they're loose limpers, I'll do it with KJo. ATo I think is very playable in most LL online games where so many people limp with Axo and Axs and will not fold if they hit the ace. I rarely play any of these to a raise unless the raiser is nuts or there are like 5 callers after the raiser and I'm suited, but if people are limping, or I'm first in, I'm playing these hands, and QJo in most cases.

[Homer]

I tend to raise AJo in LP to try to buy the button. I hate this hand with people behind me, but acting last, its much easier to go forward. For an extra SB, if i can get the button, its money well spent. On the button, I raise about 80% of the time.

I'd like to discuss this a little more.

Just to make sure I have this right -- From the CO, you raise almost 100% of the time to buy the button. From the button, you raise 80% of the time.

How do you factor in number of limpers before you, quality of players, etc?

In my opinion, it isn't worth raising to buy the button after a high number of limpers, after a small number of limpers that includes a solid player, or after limpers that won't routinely check to the raiser on the flop. Maybe I'm underestimating the importance of the button, maybe not.

From the button, I see even less of a point in raising. I'll only raise after a small number of limpers. Against a large field the value of my hand goes down, so I'd just as soon see the flop and take it from there.

AQo and AJo is an autofold to a raise from a tight player UTG. Cold callers or not, you're just in bad shape here almost every time.

Agreed. I said that you should coldcall if your opponent's UTG raising standards are slightly looser than yours and there are a few coldcallers.

except for very EP, I play all these hands but ATo and KJo

Agreed.

if I'm first in from EMP and on, I play them all

So from UTG+1 you will play ATo and KJo? I think this is too loose in almost all games.

I'll raise 2 or less limpers with ATo almost every time and if they're loose limpers, I'll do it with KJo

I'll do that sometimes as well, but I thought we were discussing EP play.

ATo I think is very playable in most LL online games where so many people limp with Axo and Axs and will not fold if they hit the ace.

From LMP and LP yes, but from EP? I don't agree, unless there is rarely a preflop raise.

I rarely play any of these to a raise unless the raiser is nuts or there are like 5 callers after the raiser and I'm suited, but if people are limping, or I'm first in, I'm playing these hands, and QJo in most cases.

So you play QJo from UTG+1? Am I misinterpreting?

Hopefully some others will chime in as well. I'm wondering if I'm missing out on some profit here.

-- Homer

[JTG51]

Homer, I agree with the majority of what you said.

The only slight disagreement is, I'll raise AJo from the CO after 3 or 4 limpers almost every time. I'd limp on the button though. I think buying the button is worth that extra small bet.

[Homer]

I'll raise AJo from the CO after 3 or 4 limpers almost every time.

Usually, with two or less I'll raise, four or more I'll call, and exactly three I'll do a mental coinflip. So I don't think we're that far off on this either...

-- Homer

[Vehn]

I think "buying the button" from the cutoff is an overated concept and I think its best to discard it. If you have AJo in the cutoff, 3 players limp to you - whether you raise or fold will rarely affect what the button will do. If he has a hand he wants to play he'll play it, especially if he's loose regardless. Its almost certain that raising specifically to "buy the button" is not worth the extra small bet.

However of course there's other reasons for raising. When 4 players limp to you in LP and you have AJo, you should raise because you're getting in money with the best hand, just like you would with AQ and AK etc. You won't win as often as you would with those hands but you're still making money by raising here. This applies to KQo as well. The reasoning really is that a player would have raised if he had a dominating hand - if you think this is not the case then its best to limp.

Of course if you're one of those "I raised preflop, you'll pry these cards out of my cold dead hands" types then maybe a limp is better /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[CrackerZack]

my post must of been a bit confusing... explanation time...

I play exclusively online at Party, generally 3-6, since i know you're familiar with the game, I think this helps instead of saying "typical online LL".

With AJo, in the cutoff+1, or cutoff, I raise AJo nearly every time unless the button or cutoff (if not me) are certainly coming along. On the button, I'll raise any less than 4 limpers nearly every time, if the limpers are players I feel play well post flop, maybe not, but this list is very short on party, 4+ limpers, it depends on the limpers. If they are the any-2-will-do types, I'll raise them also. I'm not a believer in the keep the pot small so they make mistakes later on strategy. Let them make the mistake now and possibly fold incorrectly on the flop too.

The biggest factor is quality of players in this, but i tend to pick games avoiding quality players.

From the button, the number of limpers is much less important to me than the quality of limpers. I'll raise weak limpers every time with this as they will limp with hands like Axo all the time, J8o, etc etc and will pay you off all the way. Some even go to war with no kicker. The biggest punishment to these people is to make the pay top dollar PF for limping with their crap.

we agree on AQo, AJo so I'll leave that alone.

EMP I consider at UTG+3 at a full game, if short handed, I'll move it up to UTG+2. maybe thinking this specifically is wrong, but it makes things easy for me. From this position, I'll raise a weak limper with ATo, and open raise nearly every time with it. Only if there is a LAG, unpredictable player behind me will I fold this here. Earlier though I tend to put it in the muck. KJo is a bit weak. This is usually MP on and I will raise a single limper with this, but if 2 or more limp, I tend to muck this, not even call which may be a mistake, but I find this hand kills me when I'm not last to act. I think this answers both ATo and KJo questions. of course I prefer to be in LMP or LP, but if I think there is even a semi-reasonable chance to fold out everyone behind me, I'll make the raise.

No, I won't play QJo from EP, but after 2 or 3 limpers and me in LP, I'll limp along with this hand.

Maybe i was misunderstanding you saying ATo/KJo being rarely playable, which is what I mainly disagreed with.

[CrackerZack]

I agree with the entire paragraph beginnnig with "However", but I think buying the button is very worthwhile. while I agree if he was gonna play for 1, most of the time he'll play for 2, the 20% of hands he doesn't makes this SB worthwhile, especially when combined with the "However" paragraph.

[CrackerZack]

I just re-read your initial response and didn't realize the "not-playable" table was all about UTG and UTG+1. My mistake. I completely agree with your advice here.