Lightning strikes twice, or.... Never play split 3's with a Q.

[Thinkards]

Hello Again Everyone,

Last week, I placed a post on this board asking for a "Second Opinion" regarding how I had played a particular hand in a $10-$20 stud game at Foxwoods. Well....

Same limit, same casino, different night.

I am the bring-in with a (Q 3) 3, and place $3 into the pot. I get three callers, and no raises.

On fourth street, I catch another 3, and the 3's and Q's still are live. I check, the next fellow checks, a 5 7 bets $10, then a call, and I raise to $30.

The next player folds, the original bettor calls the $30, and the last player folds.

I bet out the rest of the way, never filled, and found I had been up against unimproved rolled 5's.

Is there a moral here somewhere?

Does the law of averages say either: (a) I will get a third chance to bring it in with a (Q 3) 3, or (b) that I will go to the river and WIN with the pair of 3's?

Or are those in poker-heaven simply trying to tell me something?

Any thoughts?

[Andy B]

The law of averages does not say that things will even out the next time you get (Q3)3. It says that things will even out over the long haul. The long haul is a very long haul indeed. You're certainly not going to be able to draw any meaningful conclusions from two trials, or even twenty. Some time in your life you will probably drag a pot with (Q3)3, but it isn't exactly a premium hand. I'm 3-4 lifetime with (AA)A. Do you think I'm going to throw them away next time I get them?

I would lead rather than check-raise. If you check-raise, it looks like trips, but if you just bet out the full amount, it could be a lot of things. You were the bring-in, so you should get some action. The other guy was rolled-up and never raised you? You got lucky on that particular count.

[7stud]

I don't think there's much of a moral to the conclusion of the hand. Your 4th street play is the interesting part. Whether to check or bet your hand there depends on how tight the game was and whether there were any two flushes or two straights on board. Generally, you should play small trips fast, and with any possible straight or flush, I would bet out--you cannot risk giving any of those hands a free card. However, if you had a good read that someone would bet behind you, I think the check raise was a good play.

The rolled up fives never raised, so you got no information in that regard, but when you check raised, you announced your hand to the table(although, that is a bet you might also make if you had two pair), so you needed to look at your opponent's upcards and try to put him on a hand or hands that could improve to beat your trip 3's.

Your opponent didn't extract any extra bets out of you, so it didn't cost you anything. If he had re-raised you, you would still call the bet, and then the most conservative play would have been to check and call all the way to the river. He didn't re-raise you, so you lost the minimum--that's good!

One lesson this hand taught me is: I didn't know you could raise a single bet with a double bet when there's a paired door card on 4th street. I've never seen that before. Is that the general rule?

[Andy B]

[ QUOTE ]
One lesson this hand taught me is: I didn't know you could raise a single bet with a double bet when there's a paired door card on 4th street. I've never seen that before. Is that the general rule?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the standard rule. If there is an open pair, anyone may bet or raise either the minimum or the maximum, but once a maximum bet or raise has been made, all subsequent raises must be the maximum.

[rtrombone]

It's fine to vary your play when you hit trips at 4th. In some games it's right to go for the check-raise; in others it's right to bet.

The moral here is you got lucky to be against a passive opponent who doesn't know how to play. He should have raised you somewhere along the line.

You also got lucky that both of you didn't fill up.

[patrick dicaprio]

my first thought when reading your post is that you might be against rolled fives. he has to have something to call your raise when he knows there is a good chance you have trips. he wont call with a straight draw so what other hand can he have? maybe a bigpair but he would have raised.

of course this is 20-20 hindsight and it is easy to sit here at a keyboard and analyze the hand. one thing that this hand brings up is the difference between 10-20 and lower limits, which is that players generally dont play garbage, and will have a good hand if they call a raise. this is a general observation. at lower limits you could put the 57 on a number of hands, but at 10-20 is he is a decent player the set of possible hands is a whole lot less.

Pat

[patrick dicaprio]

not sure how good a player the 75 was and it certainly looks like he was a passive player. but we did get some info on his hand in that he only bet a half bet into a hand where another player has a paired door card.

i think the checkraise here is generally the right play. if you are the bring in and pair your door card you generally should checkraise. the only quibble i have is that by checkraising on fourth street when your opponent has bet a half bet is a loss of a half bet if you could have checkraised or raised on fifth street.

pat

[Thinkards]

Patrick,

In your first response, you indicated someone at $10-$20 would not call a raise with a mere straight draw (5 7 on board on fourth street).

If you would, please take a moment and re-read my article from last week (entitled "A Second Opinion, If You Please.") With that in mind, please have a fresh look at yesterday's piece.

To be sure, after these experiences, I am not convinced the difference between low and middle limits is as great as you may have indicated. (One thing I should mention is that Mr. rolled 5's played almost every hand, and so putting him on a hand was never easy.)

In any event, I truly appreciate the responses/input, and am looking forward to future conversation with everyone in this forum. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Ray Zee]

these kind of hands are routine in poker and have little to do with your outcomes if you play enough. except that when you have the rolled fives you will win an extra bet. that means something.
the important hands are hands like you have two pair and he has aces and you dont get the extra bet from him. or you have the aces and dont raise in the right spot and lose equity.

[patrick dicaprio]

i reread your last post and i guess there are players who will call with anything. the situation is a little different because in your other post the pot was bigger making it more likely that a draw would call. in this hand the pot is smaller because there were no raises on third street so it is less likely you will get a call.

i dont think the difference is great, but it is a difference. it is not so much a difference in skill, which there is of course, but a difference in how hands are played, especially on third street.

if this guy played every hand that still doesnt give you as much info as you think, unless he was calling a lot of raises on third with every hand, in which case he can be difficult to read (but maybe not difficult to beat. /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

i dont think i would say 10-20 is really middle limits, because of the ante structure and the first raise being to ten.

Pat