Always paying off Crappy 2 pair

[Yeknom58]

I'm just wondering if I should be folding this more often or is calling a better option. I've been calling and losing.

I'm in MP with QJs, 1 callers and I limp along, Button and CO calls, the SB folds and BB checks.

Flop: [Qs, 7c, 2c]

Checked to me, I bet, button and CO call.

Turn: 4s

I bet, Button and CO call.

River: 9h

I bet, CO folds and Button RAISES me. I called and he shows Q-4 for the turned 2 pair. Does anyone make this fold. I guess his raise is telling me my Top pair is no good. I figured he put me on some kind of draw that's why he raised me on the end when the Flush/straight didn't get there. I guess I was wrong.

[Joe Tall]

I might raise preflop if I knew EP would limp with cheese. (I wonder what the others will think about this comment...overagressive again, I'm not sure.)

After that I think you played it fine, you may want to fold to the river raise (I would have put the button on Q9s or 99, not Q4) but if I thought the button was a ticky player trying to put a move on me, I'd call.

[thomastem]

There are 2 Qs as you are holding one and one has been flopped. You need to throw the table and smash everyone in site! /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[onegymrat]

Yeknom,
Depending on what type of player he is will determine if you call the river raise. I figure I would fold to that raise about 90% of the time. Once in a long while, you'll run into that tricky player who will try to steal it because he has absolutely nothing, but it'll be seldom. He raised you most likely because he knew you wouldn't play the same crap he does (Q-4, Q-7 etc.), therefore believing you only have one pair.

As far as should you play these marginal hands. Well, I would certainly play Q-J suited in MP with a passive table. I would also dump these hands if it's an aggressive table, or I've been beat repeatly in the same session with the hand you've just posted, and then wait for a stronger one and come in with a raise. Good luck.

[onegymrat]

Come to think of it, I like his suggestion better...

[Aces McGee]

I find it unlikely that he would put you on a draw.

You bet both the flop and the turn. While a lot of 2+2ers recommend betting draws, I think many more casual players -- particularly those playing Q4 in the cutoff -- don't even think of this play. I think he probably thinks you have a pair. Then again, he may not be paying any attention at all to what you have.

When he comes to life and raises on the river...I think he's either gotta have 99 for the rivered set, rivered two pair with Q9, or a slowplayed top two or set on the flop. I don't think you'd be giving up much by folding to his river raise.

Aces McGee

[Tosh]

Well I wouldn't complain about players playing Q4.

Maybe don't bet the river as its likely you'll only get called (or raised) when you're beaten.

[Blue Sky]

It sounds to me like it was a pretty loose passive table to begin with and that you must alter your play based on this type of game.

The following advice is how I play in a loose passive game and is open for the rest of you to take shots at.

Anytime there are a bunch of calling stations I feel that you can open the range of hands that you limp in with to see a flop. Nothing as dramatic as your opponet did here but possibly suited connectors from earlier position and the like. Once you see the flop you only have one option the flop hit you and you pump the pot, or you dump the hand. When I say hit you I don't mean you have top pair top kicker because your not that strong in this type of game. You have to have top two or a strong set. I believe this is the only way to play in this type of game. I'm sure there will be a lot of disagreement on this subject and I welcome any criticsm.

Here is a quick mental note to file away and bring out whenever you get into one of these types of games. Someone much wiser then myself came up with this so don't think I'm original here but here goes. In a loose passive game its not the number of outs that you have its the combined number of outs that your opponets have against you. Keep in mind that every card that hits the board has the opportunity to make someone else's hand. No matter how far fetched the gutshot straight, turn and river flush, turn and river two pair might be someone might have it.

Sorry for the long answer to your question. The quick answer is that I probably wouldn't of called the raise on the river simply because I realize that alot of limping players will come in from LP with Q9 and would of thought that your opponet caught the second pair on the river.

[Yeknom58]

So it seems the consensus is to fold to the raise. I kind of figured this was the correct thing to do as it was the opposite of what I was actually doing. Why would he try to make a move on me with that board?

Good advice guys keep it coming?