a KK hand

[Nottom]

Same Paradise 1/2 game

5 limpers and I raise with KK in the SB. BB and all the limpers come along.

Flop: 8 9 9

I check, 3 more check and MP bets, 2 LPs call, I checkraise, BB folds. Next 2 call-2. MP 3-bets, LPs fold, I call as do the 2 EPs.

Turn is another 8 and its checked around.

River is a blank.

I bet, EPs fold, MP raises and I call.

[mojolang]

I 've never played online so I dont know how bad the players are but this is quite a strange hand, first off I wouldnt raise 5 limpers with KK out of teh SB, in fact I probably wouldnt do it in any pos (see HPFAP for further discussion-playing in loose games). The check-raise was good I suppose to find out where you're at, problem is, what would MP 3 bet with this many callers? I can only conceive of a nine, really unless he is crazy. When the second 8 comes I'd say youre hand is dead, and I have no idea why ot was checked around. Finally I'd check the river with the intention of calling and snagging some overcalls.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
first off I wouldnt raise 5 limpers with KK out of teh SB, in fact I probably wouldnt do it in any pos (see HPFAP for further discussion-playing in loose games

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely horrendous advice. Totally wrong. Completely misguided.

Since you're so keen about suggesting nottom reread HEPFAP, I suggest you do it youself. There is no advice in HEPFAP which says you should be limping/completing with KK. It is always worth a raise without exception.

[SoCalPat]

Nottom,

I think the MP betting into the field on the flop and raising the river clearly indicates you're dead, as he has a 9. His checking the turn after he filled up was probably him trying to check-raise anyone with an 8 or an overpair.

Strongly disagree with poster who said don't raise KK here. Anyone who doesn't raise when holding what's likely the best hand preflop or on expensive streets is costing himself big money.

[asdf1234]

I think Dynasty's right about this one. If I'm not mistaken, the section you're thinking of states that you should be less inclined to raise with some hands in loose games so that it doesn't become correct to chase with crap. I believe that there is an important adverb in there somewhere, "slightly". KK is not slightly better than your opponent's hands, it is tremendously better and is definitely worth a raise.

[mojolang]

HPFAP

Page 167

"For instance, suppose you have two kings or 2 queens in the big blinds. The player under the gun raises and six people call. Out preferred way to play the hand is not to reraise, and then when the flop comes to bet out unless it includes an ace......for example if tthe flop is T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif instead of reraising before the flop and giving you rhand away, and then beting on the flop where most of your opponents will now correctly call you, you should just call (before teh flop) and give up a little preflop equity in order to bet on the flop and have the original raiser on your left knock out all those who were getting the proper price to chase."

True, by raising you are probably getting your money in with the best hand; that's good. Yes, in the long run you will most definately show a profit doing this. However, if you can keep the pot to a minimum (its already seven bets i this example) you will gain it all back and then some when you charge these same players to draw to smaller pairs, gutshots etc. Dynasty, we've already had this conversation regarding AQ. You were wrong then and apparently you still don't understand this concept. I'd greatly like to hear the flaw in my arguement.

Joe

[asdf1234]

What happens when the preflop raiser doesn't pop it on the flop?

[mojolang]

I think you're missing the point. The idea is to manipulate the size of the pot so that one can exploit the mistakes of the weaker players. S&M point out that this is very different from playing optimally overall. If you were playing against good players you would be far more likely to raise, but because these bad players are going to make bad calls anyway, you want to profit from them as much as possible (IE make them as incorrect as possible)

Joe.

[SwordFish]

You are talking apples and oranges here.

"For instance, suppose you have two kings or 2 queens in the big blinds. The player under the gun raises and six people call. Out preferred way to play the hand is not to reraise"

This quote refers to a hand that has already been raised when it is the blinds turn to act. The blind would thus be three betting.

The hand in question in this thread has five limpers when it is the SB's turn to act. This is a completely different situation and a must raise.

SF

[anatta]

I get KK in SB after a bunch of limpers. I raise. I know what you guys are thinking, "Hey, anatta, you said "advanced". This is easy. I raise all the time!"

Well, here's the advanced part. You should already know that post flop play is very complicated, often requiring the Holdem master to balance many different, often conflicting, concepts. Okay, after said balancing, I bet the flop. A whole bunch of guys call. Then I bet the turn. A few guys call. If I lost you, please go back and review, because my play on the river presupposes an understanding of my play up to this point. Ready? I then bet the river. One guy calls. If you've played the hand correctly, the guy who calls will always shake his head and show you a Jack.

Before I get inudated with PM's thanking me, dig this! My advanced play works well for hands like AA and QQ too! The only difference is when you show your hand, the guy with the Jack will say, "I knew you had ___ ", leaving me to ponder how he knows my exact pocket pair as I stack his chips.

[Ed Miller]

I'm not going to rehash this silly argument, but I am going to say that you are making a big mistake if you fail to raise KK in this spot. So if my vote matters, I vote strongly against you and with Dynasty.

[Nottom]

This is not even close to the same situation as the one I was in. S&M are advocation just smooth calling a PFR with KK so that you can bet out and let the raiser face the field with 2 bets.

Note, even S&M says you need to raise AQ or other lesser premium hands in games with extremely bad opponents as is the case in many online low-limit games.

From HEFAP pg 159-160
[ QUOTE ]
There is a bit of a two-edged sword here. If you are playing against extremely terrible opponents, it's hard not to raise with pretty good hands because even though you are costing yourself monet on later streets, your're gaining so much before the flop because your hand is usually so much better than theirs. In other words, if people are coming in with absolutely everything, you have got to raise with an AQ simply because your hand is so much better on average than many of the players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe this factor seems to be overlooked a lot when we get into these types of discussions.

[Nottom]

I have to agree 100% the only thing I was thinking when it was my turn to act was "Sweet all these limpers are just more money for me, I love getting big hands in the blinds so I can raise everyone."

[Robk]

>Dynasty, we've already had this conversation regarding >AQ .You were wrong then and apparently you still don't >understand this concept.

As I said during the original AQ discussion, you are the one misunderstanding the concept. You're just blindly applying the pot size manipulation advice to situations where it is wrong to do so.

>I'd greatly like to hear the flaw in my arguement.

I already told you the flaw in your AQ argument, reread my post in that thread. Nottom's post in this thread points out the clear differences in the KK hands. Not raising here is a big mistake.

[JTG51]

I just want to be included on any list with Dynasty and majorkong, unless Dynasty becomes a vegetarian (which I'm guessing is about as likely as him not raising KK out of the SB).

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Dynasty, we've already had this conversation regarding AQ. You were wrong then and apparently you still don't understand this concept. I'd greatly like to hear the flaw in my arguement.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, for starters, the S&M passage you cite (which I don't agree w/ anyway, a topic that has been discussed many times on these forums) doesn't even apply to this situation.

[DarkKnight]

Unless your up against a tricky player I suspect your
beat heat to a fullhouse. Fold to the raise.

[Nottom]

After the turn was checked though I was almost positive he didn't have a 9 and was scared of that second 8. I also figured if the 2 EPs would call with an 8, then they would surely bet when their miracle card came so they probably didn't have one.

When I got raised on the river, I was about 80% sure my hand was still good but was more afraid he spiked his boat with the blank than he held an 8 or 9. With 17BB in the pot I was gonna make him show me a winner.

He flipped over 44 and I dragged the pot.

[mojolang]

Well first off the S&M passage I site does apply to this situation because KK is a hand that loses value multi way. However I talked with JTG aout this and he basically said that with a hand like KK you are going to make more by raising preflop than by exploiting the mistakes made by other players later. S&M also state that when players are coming in with absolutely everyhting (I now realize this was the case with this game after the poster said he was taken to the river ith somone with 44). In retrospect, in a game such as this it probably is better to raise with KK even though you are making the pot huge. This being said, I highly doubt it is a big mistake to keep the pot smaller and try to manipulate the opponents on later rounds. I got in an arguement with dynasty earlier about AQo and raising out of the blinds in a loose game and it applies 100% to HPFAP. The fact is, on that topic, he was wrong.

Joe

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Well first off the S&M passage I site does apply to this situation because KK is a hand that loses value multi way.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can keep saying it applies, but that won't make you right.

In fact, if you smooth call and bet the flop in this situation, you're going to do almost exactly the opposite of what S&M are illustrating in that passage.

In their example, there's an UTG raiser who you expect to raise your bet w/ a likely worse hand than yours.

In this example, you have no reason to expect UTG to raise. In fact, it's more likely that anyone will call w/ any little piece of the flop than they would had you raised pre-flop from the BB (indicating a big hand).

S&M's passage is about maximizing your chances of winning the pot when it gets big.

What you recommend keeps the pot small and is not doing anything to increase your chances of winning it. Basically, you're recommending just about the worst possible set of choices.

[mojolang]

I already said it is better ro raise in this situation but if you do raise you are making the pot 14 bets. Wow, that means it is correct to call with bottom pair, a gutshot draws etc. Sklansky and Malmuth say frequently keep it to one bet and utpkay your opponents later. You are profiting from their mistakes.

This being said I discussed it with JTG and he said the equity you make after the flop is not made up by what you are giving up preflop with this hand. Apparently you missed this in my last post. Raise away.

Joe

[mojolang]

a check-raise with the kings is certainly a possibility as well even without the preflop raiser.

Joe

[JTG51]

...if you do raise you are making the pot 14 bets. Wow, that means it is correct to call with bottom pair, a gutshot draws etc.

Another thing I said in that PM as that with 7 players seeing the flop, and you (I'm assuming) betting the flop, everyone is going to be getting at least 8-1, meaning they probably should be calling with their gutshots and bottom pairs anyway.

In other words, your opponents won't be making as big a mistake calling with those hands on the flop as they would have by putting 2 bets in preflop.

I know you already agreed, I just think that point was worth repeating.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Sklansky and Malmuth say frequently keep it to one bet and utpkay your opponents later. You are profiting from their mistakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

They say to frequently keep it one bet w/ pocket Kings? I haven't read that book in ages, but that sure seems like terrible advice if true. Where do they say that?

[ QUOTE ]
Apparently you missed this in my last post. Raise away.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't miss that. I was responding to the fact that you still insisted that S&M's passage you initially cited was applicable to the situation in this post. Following that advice in this situation is really bad.

[mojolang]

The other reason I advocated not raising with KK is I recently played a hand that got capped 5 ways and I had AA. When the smoke cleared I had lost 6 big bets to 46 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

With my head spinning all I was thinking is, "man, that guy would have been soooo wrong to draw to his gutshot had I not made the pot 25 SBs preflop"

I would almost feel more comfortable putting in 5 bets in a multi-way pot with AKs or JTs, but I know thats wrong.

Bad beat willies I suppose.

Joe

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
a check-raise with the kings is certainly a possibility as well even without the preflop raiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't want to get into a discussion of the merits of check-raising vs. betting in this situation, but I will say one thing: Planning a checkraise to narrow the field is a very tricky proposition when you have absolutely no idea who is going to bet.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
With my head spinning all I was thinking is, "man, that guy would have been soooo wrong to draw to his gutshot had I not made the pot 25 SBs preflop"

[/ QUOTE ]

But, he would have drawn to it anyway. Regardless of how much or how little money went into the pot pre-flop, he would have won no matter what. Don't you see that?

[CrackerZack]

Yes it sucks when aces get cracked, but this is completely the wrong thought pattern. You should be thinking, wow, that guy paid 6 BBs to draw to a gutshot with 64s, and he paid X BBs to play it PF. And remember that. Losing with AA sucks but it happens and will happen many times again. Learn something about your opponents so next time you're against them you can make a more accurate read.

[CrackerZack]

[ QUOTE ]
I 've never played online so I dont know how bad the players are but this is quite a strange hand, first off I wouldnt raise 5 limpers with KK out of teh SB, in fact I probably wouldnt do it in any pos (see HPFAP for further discussion-playing in loose games).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll sort of accept the debate of JJ or AQ in this position as debateable for just completing, but with KK its horrendous. You have the 2nd best hand in the game. Raise, raise raise. Flop is 3 unders, bet the flop. turn is still unders, bet the turn. river is still unders, bet the river.

[mojolang]

Yeah, I got it. Thanks for the input. responses like that are more helpful than "no, you're wrong."

Joe

BTW it is impossible to read opponents who are coming in for 5 bets with 64s

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW it is impossible to read opponents who are coming in for 5 bets with 64s

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll concede that it's pretty tough to put someone on 46 if they call 4 or 5 bets cold. On the other hand, if they get there on the installment plan, there's no hand I'm not willing to put someone on. You just need to be willing to change your read as the hand develops. Sounds like you probably did that in this hand, since you said you only lost 6BB total. 5SB preflop + a bet on every street = 5BB, so it wasn't like you went crazy post-flop.