Need advice on a common situation

[sam h]

This hand is pretty basic I suppose, but I think every street was debatable. 12-24, good game.

Fish limps UTG2, decent, semi-loose player who is on a rush but doesn't seem to get too out of line raises from LMP. Folded to me in BB and I call with black 66. Three to the flop of 854 with two diamonds.

I bet, fishy folds and PFR raises. I call. Turn is an offsuit 3. I check and call. River is the 3 of diamonds. I check and fold.

Is this just read dependent? I read him as strong and hadn't seen him play all that aggressively in the few hours we'd been at the table together, so I mucked . Is that a bad fold? And does anybody checkraise the flop instead of betting out or checkraise the turn? Finally, who folds preflop?

[DKNY]

a check-raise on the flop would've been a stronger play. Since you bet into pre-flop raiser, he might see that as weakness. OK you bet out and he raised, I would 3 bet. #1. you could be ahead, he could be raising with two big cards. #2. You have outs.

On the turn I would bet since you have a straight draw on top of 2nd pair.

D

[CrackerZack]

I'd C/R the flop every time and lead out on the turn.

[elysium]

hi sam
you should call this one down heads-up.

[anatta]

Pre flop go ahead and call with any small pocket pair in BB with 2 opponents.

One the flop, I would probably check raise with an eye towards getting the middle player out, and putting pressure on the other guy. If he three bets, I call him down if he is aggressive enough to keep pushing overcards all the way, and you have outs. If he just calls, I bet the turn. If he raises the turn, I would fold to a river bet.

Other than the fold at the river, the way you played it is seems okay to me. Your bet on the flop would fold the guy in the middle if he has little since he will fear a raise behind him. Once raised, even though you pick up a str8 draw on the turn, check calling is better than betting out. He will raise your bet if he has an overpair, and you don't care much if he folds or calls with his overcards, and he isn't going to give or take a free card with either.

[bruce]

I would lead with this type of flop most of the time rather than attempting to checkraise. With junk on the flop the chances of nobody betting is way too high. By leading you put the early player in a box because he doesn't know how the raiser will react. Also by checkraising if your opponent reraises it is now costing you three bets and you still don't know if he is screwing around on the flop. On the river I would call almost 100% of the time. I am just not going to throw away a pocket pair which is higher than the rank of the second card. Work out the math and I think you'll see that the pot odds certainly justify a call on your behalf. You are going to see Ace big way too many times for you to make this type of laydown. I come from
Missouri, better known as the Show Me State.

Bruce

[anatta]

I think your are right, I posted about both options the bet out and the check-raise, and said I favor the check-raise, but the betting out looks better for the reasons you say. It puts similar pressure on the middle player and costs less. The check-raise might gain you information, but not enough to be useful since you are seeing a showdown here.

[elysium]

hi again sam
i was tired my last visit to this thread. let's see.....well, the pre-flop call, hmmmm.....sam, i'm going to say that if you have a lot of experience and know for a fact that the UTG limper will only call, you've got to know this though, then you can call with 66. it's a whole lot better though if your call were to close the action on an UTG raiser.

as far as check-raising the flop, sam i don't think so. not here. what your hoping to accomplish on the flop is to get this thing heads up on the turn, or of course, take it down now on the flop. you will only take it down now if you bet.

on the turn, your hand can improve, so check-calling is correct.

very importantly sam, if you fail to get this thing heads up by the turn, your best play on the turn is to check-fold. this holding is just playable heads up by a sliver. this is about as razor thin as you can get in hold em. interestingly though sam, it's well worth a call on the river provided that you show your cards. no matter what is shown against it, even if you win, this holding proves that you will make the tough call. never forget to show your cards in these situations.

[DiamondDave]

It's not good poker to fold heads-up on the river when you have shown weakness and can beat a bluff. That said, you should have tried to take the initiative on the turn.

The preflop raiser, a "semi-loose player who doesn't get too out of line", doesn't require a pocket pair to raise behind a fishy limper. He'd definitely do it with ace-face, possibly big suited cards, maybe other hands as well. If this is the case, you're in front on the flop a good % of the time in this spot.

He knows that you know that there is a good chance that he has as little as AQo or ATs. He doesn't put you on a straight, more like a draw and/or pair. He wants to keep the initiative. He would like the option to take a free card on the turn or a free showdown on the river, and he knows you can't give lots of action without a straight or a four-flush. So he raises.

Just calling his flop raise is fine. You probably wouldn't want to make it four bets in this spot with less than two pair, a set, or a pair and a four-flush. He has position and you know you you'll probably fold if the turn brings an ace or a diamond.

You must bet when the turn brings the offsuit trey. You picked up additional outs against a big pair, and you must charge him to draw if he has high cards and/or diamonds. Hopefully he'll fold, it's OK if he calls, and you can call if he raises.

Instead, you gave him the initiative by check-calling the turn, you invited a bluff on the river, and folded for one last bet even though you could beat many of the hands he could be holding.