What is going through his head here?

[Nottom]

With all this talk about pineapple I figured I would post a hand in which my opponents play baffled me.

I'm in the small blind with AhJd8d ... not exactly a monster but I figure its worth .5SB after 4 limpers. BB checks and its 6 to the flop.

Flop comes K J 6

Its checked around and I dump my 8 and begin to think my J is actually good here.

Turn is a 4.

Its checked to the button who bets, I checkraise. all fold to button who calls.

Turn is another 4.

I bet and he calls and shows KJ for top 2 /images/graemlins/confused.gif

I just don't get it.

[Al Mirpuri]

The Law Of Loose Wiring is a conceptual term originating with Mike Caro. He describes a hand with several players that player x wins with a moderate pot. He then describes a hand that player y wins with a huge pot. All the players in both hands held exactly the same cards but played/bet them differently. The moral: the fish don't know why they do what they do. That is why they are fish. You're guy sounds like a loose passive who just did not understand the hand values. He was probably scared you had quad fours!

[Buzz]

"I just don't get it."

Nottom - You don't get why he called after your check-raised? Or you don't get why he didn't bet the flop? Or both?

I have no idea what your opponent was thinking. Here's a possible explanation.

Your opponent might have slow played top two after the flop from late position hoping to trap someone in the hand. (I often see some players routinely delay a round after the flop before betting their hands, perhaps hoping to confuse their opponents).

Then he might have decided to just call you down after you check raised on the turn. (On occasion I'll call someone just to see how they're playing).

But who knows? Perhaps my hypothesis doesn't make sense to you, or perhaps your opponent simply had a mental lapse and made a mistake.

Buzz

[Nottom]

I guess trying to get inside the mind of a fish is just a lost cause.

[Nottom]

I'm sure that was his basic idea, but it just baffles me when I take his bait on the slowplay that he doesn't lay down the hammer with a 3-bet.

Oh well. Like the other poster said, I guess that's what makes them fish. I think this was about the 4th hand in a row that someone had flopped 2-pair against me and never raised at any point in the hand and was just wondering if anyone could tell me why fish do what they do.

[nicky g]

[Ilovephysics]

I'm not a great player, or even a good player, but even this play confuses me.

I do agree with Buzz that it is possible this player slow-played top two, at least initially...

My best attempt, as a fish-like player, to describe fish play:

0) Fish (with good hands) often play their hands 'in fear' of a better hand... This doesn't mean they won't call you(they still know they have a good hand!), but they don't want to get in too deep.

1) Fish almost always see a 'free' card as a GOOD thing (Hey, it's free, I don't lose any money, it must be good!), even with best hand now, but a potential drawing situation...

2) A lot of 'smarter' fish have gotten burnt with check-raises (whether correct check raises or not). You probably scared the fish even more.

3) Most fish don't keep track of the betting history of a hand very well, if at all.

My best guess, he was worried about you having 66, and didn't even give it a second thought that you would have bet that hand after the flop.. well, unless he thought you were trying to check-raise the round before after your subsequent check-raise.

[Buzz]

Ilovephysics - Very perceptive post. Not because you agreed with me that this player might have slow played top two, but because you have given us a glimpse into the very possible mind set of this player.

" Fish (with good hands) often play their hands 'in fear' of a better hand... This doesn't mean they won't call you(they still know they have a good hand!), but they don't want to get in too deep."

That very well might be the crux of it.

"1) Fish .... see a 'free' card as a GOOD thing .... with .... a potential drawing situation."

Or that might be the crux of it. After the flop he's on a draw for the nuts and doesn't bet becuase he wants to make a full house before betting. However, when everyone checks to him twice[/i] it dawns on him that he might actually have the best hand.

"(whether correct check raises or not)"

Nottom's check raise amounts to a semi-bluff. I wouldn't try a semi-bluff-check-raise on someone I considered a poor player, because I'd expect to get called down, just like Nottom got called down here. That's how many calling stations may operate. They may be afraid, but at the same time they're stubborn.

"You probably scared the fish even more."

Or aroused his curiosity.

"Most fish don't keep track of the betting history of a hand very well, if at all."

I think you hit the nail squarely on the head with that observation. The poor player may not even be [b]thinking of putting Nottom on a hand. He may be playing his own cards with no idea of what cards Nottom may be holding. It does not even occur to him to think back to how Nottom has bet the hand thus far.

He may simply see Nottom's raise on the turn as either a solid bet or not - but have no idea which.

He may not even realize Nottom checked before he raised on the same betting round. That is, he may not realize Nottom has check-raised. In other words, he may see each action as separate, with no connection to any other action.

"My best guess, he was worried about you having 66, and didn't even give it a second thought that you would have bet that hand after the flop.. well, unless he thought you were trying to check-raise the round before after your subsequent check-raise."

Possible.

All in all, some very perceptive insights from you. Thanks for sharing.

Buzz

[Buzz]

Re: What is going through his head here?

"I think this was about the 4th hand in a row that someone had flopped 2-pair against me and never raised at any point in the hand and was just wondering if anyone could tell me why fish do what they do."

Nottom - I can't tell you why fish do what they do. I can tell you there are different varieties of fish and you don't catch them all with a single angling technique. And you may not catch them at all when you use angling techniques designed for sharks.

My opinion is that flopped 2-pair in a loose game of crazy pineapple is not a particularly good hand. I'll generally play top two pair (and probably raise with it, depending), and I might also play top and bottom two pair (and probably also raise with it, depending) - but I'd shy away from bottom top pair.

An overpair or top pair is dung in a loose game of crazy pineapple. And middle pair? Well... very dangerous, as you found out. Good players will bite you when you play sub-standard hand/flop fits - and you can't make moves on poor players who are also stubborn.

Crazy pineapple is not Texas hold 'em. You can get burned badly in this game with a hand that looks good in Texas hold 'em - and even with a hand that looks good in non-crazy pineapple.

Just my opinion. (I played and studied this game for a while - and still occasionally play it).

Buzz

[Ilovephysics]

Sorry for the long post, I just like contributing when I can.

When you were a fish, you still *are* a fish to people on these boards, and you play with fish all the time on the weekends, you tend to learn a lot about the ways of the fish...

With regard to my point (0), 'decent card playing fish' are 'afriad' to bet with good players and 'be aggressive' with their hands(unless it is AA or something real good)... If fish were more aggressive, they'd probably do better. I think most fish are also used to home-style games in which people bluff a lot more, and don't take the game as serious... most fish will immediately believe they are outclassed for a long time until they adjust to the play.

Then again, you shouldn't complain if it saves you money.

With regard to (1), Yes! I believe the fish was also thinking 'Full House'! I know that when I used to play poorly and in home games, I'd flop two pair and stick around for a BOAT as much as or moreso than PLAY the 2 pair that I had... because at home games with wild cards, etc., the fish are used to seeing a lot of monster hands win, and two pairs losing!

Notice how bad that sounds (or good, depending on your take on fish)...

I was looking for a BOAT (who wouldn't), I wasn't trying to 'protect' my two pair. Fish just don't see the odds as being that 'bad' because they are often used to games with monster hands... I think they look at it from a glass is half full sort of "I could get really lucky and get an awesome hand! Then I can't lose" point of view. I think the same holds true with a fish and a Flush flop. A fish with two suited cards who flops two of that suit will likely call (notice, call likely until they make their hand) the next two cards to try to make a flush... they just need to hit once with a lot of callers to fuel this type of action for a long time.

And fish always like FREE cards because, as fish, most like to gamble a while, and the more they can gamble for free, the better... and the more cards they see, the more they feel a part of the game.

With regard to (2), Check-raises (or even a Semi-bluff, as yes, that was more correctly a semi-bluff) generally do not sit very well with the fishy folk... Most fish I know HATE check-raises!! It is very uncomfortable for them... it really puts them on the spot, especially when they thought they have a hand, and possibly the best hand...

Truthfully, I think it makes them into BETTER players against YOU, which hurts you in the long run... yes, most will call you down, and most will hold a grudge if they lose the pot... However, do you really want a fish to even think about playing better against you?

With (3), yeah, most fish just think about the here and now, and how good their hand is compared to what's on the board. Some of the 'Rounders-wannabe' types will have a better idea than most, but I doubt they have a good sense of how you bet previous hands, etc.

As far as the 66 guess (or even KK or JJ), I'd only say they were guessing that hand because to a fish, a check-raise (semi-bluff) is still a very 'strong' move (if they noticed it at all). If they think you are a good player, they'll almost always think you were suckering them in previous rounds (again, they are AFRAID of their hand losing, or a possible bluff)... in any case, they know if they only call, they will lose the least amount of money if you HAVE a hand, and won't be 'backing down' if you were bluffing.

Simple, No?

[Ilovephysics]

And that isn't to say I don't think you were correct with a semi-bluff-check-raise. I just believe that the reasons why someone would use this play is above the heads of most fish... and they hold it against you.

heh.. I have heard many a story of old ladies who have gotten check-raised at a low-limit table by some young whipper-snapper and not been too fond of the action.

[Aragorn]

When you check raise on the turn, he may be afraid of a set. But anything is possible

[Al Mirpuri]

David Sklansky has also written something that goes like this:

You cannot put a poor player on a thought just as you cannot put him on a hand.

[Ilovephysics]

Not to harp on a dead horse here, but while playing this weekend with 'fish' who got back from Vegas (and seemed to do ok with the lower limit 1-5 and 4-8 type tables) I heard the following:

1) "I'll always call two cards when I have a flush draw... no matter the money"
2) "I did the best at Vegas when I was in the blinds and had to play a hand... and then bet it like I had a hand."
3) "I did the best at Vegas when I didn't really look at my cards and just bet out at people."

Does this follow with what you would have expected?

[Buzz]

Ilovephysics - I think of "fish" as a contemptuous term for someone who seems easily beatable. I don't ever feel contempt for my opponents when I'm better than they are, even when I recognize I'm much, much better. Consequently, I don't use the term "fish" much. I realize the term probably has at least a slightly different meaning to other posters here, perhaps not involving "contempt" from their points of view.

My experience is that it is difficult if not impossible to put poor playing opponents on cards, unless they are rocks who only play or raise with certain types of hands. But when they're playing too many hands, and also raising too much, it often seems impossible to know what cards they hold.

However, my brain is oriented towards always thinking about what cards my opponents might hold, even when I'm much, much better than they are. I always try to understand how my opponents are playing. Somehow that aspect of the game is what makes poker interesting for me.

Therefore, yes, since I wonder, all the time when I'm playing, what my opponents are thinking it's always interesting for me to hear their possible points of view.

And I appreciate your posting their possible thoughts.

"Does this follow with what you would have expected?"

Yes. That and more. What I mean is different players have different perspectives. I've heard the perspectives you have cited (and others). But it's good for me to read them again, to reinforce them.

When I give my young grandson a bag of marbles of different types and colors, he sorts them into categories. No one ever showed him how to do that. He just does it. I did the same when I was a little boy.

Now I sort opponents - but opponents are more difficult to sort than marbles. Still, getting ideas about different categories of opponent strategies, and reinforcing ideas I've already heard is helpful.

Thanks.

Buzz

[Wake up CALL]

Buzz if you use this definition of contempt b: lack of respect or reverence for something I disagree with you. However if you use this definition a: the act of despising : the state of mind of one who despises , I agree.

I have no respect for little fishies but neither do I despise them. Fish are necessary and good. Call them whatever you wish but when you get down to it you must agree some players are inferior to others no matter what you call them. ie: A fish by any other name.......

[Ilovephysics]

Buzz and Wake-up:

After much thinking, I don't know if there is a fair definition of a 'fish' or how a 'fish' should act... just that a fish is a player who will make more mistakes than you... you just need to figure out when. I think I've discovered that it really shouldn't matter if you play sound poker...I think most 'fish'/maniacs will be obvious when you see how they respond to tight-aggressive play... at least that is what I think should happen... and placing them on specific cards should be mitigated if you yourself are playing good hands... but I'm probably wrong on this... I just sometimes, especially at lower-limits, have to figure that if it really isn't that much money, most 'fish' just don't care enough not to call.. the 'bet' just isn't as important to them as it is to some other players like myself.. and it still is better than handing $100 to a slot machine in an hour.

[Ilovephysics]

Actually, no, let me think about that statement for a moment. If I'm always in a game with a lot of callers (very low-limit), I should be playing a lot more hands pre-flop than a tight style might suggest (i.e., like the stuff you'll find in several advanced books, etc.), but basically folding a lot more, too, when I don't improve on the flop and even when I have decent starting hands like KK, especally when it seems like my top pair probably isn't the best, etc... and I don't think betting to try to get people out will work, so being an aggressive bettor isn't probably as effective if I'm just getting callers. So I guess for me, the 'fish' are the ones who will call my raise to see the flop, and call me when they are chasing a flush draw, or stick with me for several extra bets when they probably should know that if I'm still hanging around, I'm likely on a set/trips, two pair, or better.

I dunno, is that even close to being sound poker for these types of games?