Hand Review - Anyone have any advice???

[DesertEagle]

I'm curious to see what the 2+2r's think of this one!!

To me it seems obvious to lay down the nut flush when there's still two people in the hand, and two pair on board.... No? Did I make the right play?

Thanks in advance...

Jeff



***** Hand History for Game 119531722 *****
2/4 TexasHTGameTable (Limit) - Wed Jul 30 21:22:32 EDT 2003
Table Check n Raise (Real Money) -- Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: flreonlce ( $134)
Seat 2: JORJAL02 ( $59)
Seat 3: DesertEagle5 ( $63)
Seat 4: O_Rest ( $66)
Seat 5: Daren85 ( $15)
Seat 6: tmf__ ( $117)
Seat 7: adanakno ( $126)
Seat 8: zackjenk ( $57)
Seat 9: carafea ( $156)
Seat 10: fmpoker ( $43)
DesertEagle5 posts small blind (1)
O_Rest posts big blind (2)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to DesertEagle5 [ Ad, 2d ]
Daren85 folds.
tmf__ folds.
adanakno folds.
zackjenk calls (2)
carafea folds.
fmpoker folds.
flreonlce folds.
JORJAL02 calls (2)
DesertEagle5 calls (1)
O_Rest checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Jc, Td, 4d ]
DesertEagle5 checks.
O_Rest checks.
zackjenk checks.
JORJAL02 checks.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Jd ]
DesertEagle5 bets (4)
O_Rest calls (4)
zackjenk calls (4)
JORJAL02 folds.
** Dealing River ** : [ Ts ]
DesertEagle5 checks.
O_Rest checks.
zackjenk bets (4)
DesertEagle5 folds.
O_Rest raises (8) to 8
zackjenk calls (4)
** Summary **
Main Pot: $35 | Rake: $1
Board: [ Jc Td 4d Jd Ts ]
flreonlce balance $134, didn't bet (folded)
JORJAL02 balance $57, lost $2 (folded)
DesertEagle5 balance $57, lost $6 (folded)
O_Rest balance $52, lost $14 [ Kd 5s ] [ two pairs, jacks and tens -- Kd,Jc,Jd,Td,Ts ]
Daren85 balance $15, didn't bet (folded)
tmf__ balance $117, didn't bet (folded)
adanakno balance $126, didn't bet (folded)
zackjenk balance $78, bet $14, collected $35, net +$21 [ As Ks ] [ two pairs, jacks and tens with ace kicker -- As,Jc,Jd,Td,Ts ]
carafea balance $156, didn't bet (folded)
fmpoker balance $43, didn't bet (folded)
JORJAL02 has left the table.

[Ed Miller]

This was a horrible fold. Why do you put either of your opponents on a Jack or a Ten? No one bothered to bet the flop, and then they just called you when you bet the turn. I would have bet the river for value, hoping hands like Ace-high would call.

BTW, this hand features yet another river checkraise bluff. Online play is just plain whacked.

[DesertEagle]

Thank you... I really appreciate constructive criticism...

I wasn't so much worried about the J, I was more worried about the T. That's a dangerous board to have a flush against. And seeing as how they hung around with nothing anyway, you've gotta assume they'd still be in the hand with a T here.

I agree with your point though, given the way the betting went on previous rounds I can rule out one of the two callers having a J (would have raised on the turn), so I'm really only worried about the T...

I think a big flaw in my game is that when I try and put my opponents on a hand, I never really consider that they might not have any kind of a hand at all. I've seen people call all the way to the river with K2o, no pairs, and a scary looking board. I assume he's waiting around to hit his K, but I would never even play this hand, let alone keep calling if I missed the flop completely. Yet when I'm in a hand, I have a hard time imagining that someone is playing cards like these against me. Maybe I'm just a pessimist, and I always think I'm up against the nuts!!

When you say it was a "horrible fold" do you mean not in a million hands would u lay it down?

Thanks again for the reply...

Jeff

[Tyler Durden]

One of the worst mistakes a player can make is giving his opponents too much credit. If you thought every player was terrible until they showed you otherwise, you wouldn't me making much of a mistake, IMO.

[Joe Tall]

Bet the flop.

Bet the turn.

Bet the river.

This would have given you more information if they raise, betting the flop THEN the turn, THEN the river may have made them fold on the river. I think you trapped yourself here into folding.

BTW online hand-histories are a drag to read, you may get more responses if you break out the action, just a suggestion.

Peace,
Larry Joe

[Ed Miller]

When you say it was a "horrible fold" do you mean not in a million hands would u lay it down?

When I say it was a "horrible" fold, I mean that it was a very costly mistake in terms of money lost by the mistake.

Playing 87s UTG in a typical game is a modest mistake. Calling a legitimate raise with ATo is a significant mistake. Failing to protect a vulnerable made hand on the flop with a raise is a big mistake. And your fold was a horrible mistake. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The point is that... sure... your opponent might have a T... no doubt that he would stay in with that against your hand. But wouldn't he stay in with all sorts of other hands too? This pot is already a reasonable size (I'm too lazy to look at the original post and count it up) at this point, and it is one bet to you. So the pot is laying, say, 7-1 on your call. Are you 80%+ sure that this dude has a T? Of course not... there is nothing that has happened in the hand that should direct you to that conclusion. Therefore, you should at least call. But what you acutally should have done was bet the river and call a raise (why call a raise? Because a T doesn't raise the river there, fearing a J. So the raise is either a J or a bluff... and a J is unlikely).

Over the longterm, a mistake like this one can cost you 5 BB+ each you make it. Since a solid player aims to make 1 BB/hr in the game, you simply cannot make these mistakes and win in the longterm.

Fortunately, you aren't going to make this mistake again. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Aragorn]

There are $33 in the pot and it costs $4 to call. If there is once chance in 8 that you have the best hand you should call. I think you would win this pot FAR more than one time in 8. It's an easy call.

If you call and the player behind you raises, and the original bettor calls, then it gets dicier. How likely is it the third player will raise two players without a full house and that the original bettor will stay in. But the chances that he might have a smaller flush probably means you still need to put in that last bet.

[Aces McGee]

Hi majorkong

I bluff-checkraised the river in a live game at the Taj once. It was in April, my second-ever session. I guess you could say I didn't know any better.

I'm the BB with 54o. Something like three people limp. I check my $2 blind.

Flop is Q63r. The play of the hand gets hazy here (i.e., I can't remember how many players remained), but I call one bet to the turn, which is K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. It puts two diamonds on board. A bet, and I'm closing the action. If I call, it's heads up to the river, if I fold, my opponent drags the pot.

I stare at the pot for a few seconds, counting to see if I have the odds for the straight. I decide (incorrectly, probably) that I do, and call.

River is a rag diamond. I check, he bets. I immediately come over the top.

A word on my opponent: he was very weak-tight, but he also paid attention to what was going on at the table. I knew he saw me counting the chips, and put me on a draw of some sort. I also knew that he was weak enough to lay something down here.

He stared at me forever, then mucked.

I know I played it horribly: not betting my oesd, as some might suggest, calling when I probably didnt have the odds on the turn, trying some stupid stunt at the river. But I was a newbie then. Now, I'm a journeyman. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Aces McGee

[Ed Miller]

Huh? Why is that a stupid stunt? I bluff-raised the river successfully about a week ago in quite a big pot. Just because it doesn't work often doesn't mean you shouldn't be looking for opportunities to use it! Looks like you found a fantastic one.

My point was not that bluff checkraises are stupid. Just that no one that I play live with have I ever seen attempt such a thing.

BTW, you almost certainly had odds to call the turn for your straight.

[Aces McGee]

Hi majorkong

Guess I misunderstood you.

I actually was quite proud of it when I did it. I was bowing to your superior knowledge and experience, but my simple journeyman brain could not even interpret your posts correctly. My apologies.

Congrats on your bluff raise. I'm surprised it can work on a big pot. Was it heads up?

Aces McGee

[baseball38]

I would definately call them down. I would have to think that if one of them had on of the top pair or even second pair on the flop they would have bet trying to get the overcards out of there. Just my opinion though.

baseball38 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[crockpot]

i have some advice...write these guys' names down on your buddy list and follow them around like a remora to profitable games.

as for the discussion, i don't know if we can assume that a guy who limps with AKs preflop is going to bet top or middle pair on the flop, unless he assumed someone would raise after him allowing him to three bet. keep in mind that the pot is small on the river due to the lack of betting. still, i think i would have called the first bet if it came from the last player to act and prayed my hand was good. if it was a cold (bluff-)raise to you, you're definitely correct to get out of there.

it is interesting to see a guy play so passively preflop and so selectively aggressive on the river, both bluffing out the best hand and correctly calling down a bluff-raise from a worse hand. on a side note, do we all agree that the AKs made the correct play calling down the raise on the river? in my opinion there is no hand he can have that is consistent with this river play. once the lead bettor has checked, why is this guy going to check behind him when holding a hand big enough to check raise, such as any jack? to get away with this bluff, he either has to be a sophisticated player capable of checking a jack in that situation or catch the bettor napping.