official israeli position on palestine problem

[brad]

theyre gonna wait until palestines forget that the israelis (mostly russians btw) came in and took all their land.

then theyre gonna transer them at a politically opportune time.

timeframe maybe 50 more years, its a multigenerational plan obviously.

so thats why they dont want infrastructure and stuff built up in palestinian zones.

literally, they just want them to sit there until they can move them to jordan or wherever.

====
my point is just that when nothing is happening the israeli plan is going forward full force.

p.s. just to say it again theres like 30 million illegal aliens in US already, mostly mexicans, i dont see why we cant just accept all palestinians into US (less than a mill im sure). i mean mexicans dont speak english either.

[MMMMMM]

brad do you really want a million Palestinian refugees moving here. That'd presuming they would, of course--give up their claim and dream of taking all of Israel.

Do you think having 30 million illegal aliens in the US is a good thing? The number of illegal immigrants every year now surpasses the number of legal immigrants every year.

Hell why not just have a billion illegal immigrants--then we won't have a United States of America anymore, we'll have a bunch of people all crowded together and living under something, but that something won't be the US Constitution, and who knows what the primary language will be.

All ways aren't equal, and all cultures aren't equal. No way in hell do I want a million people moving here who are used to using suicide bombings to try to solve their differences with others.

[brad]

hey i dont want 30 million illegal aliens here either. but whats a million more?

repubilcans and democrats are both hell bent on destroying america. 500k palestinians (dont know how many there are but cant be a lot i dont think) wont make any difference.
hell theyre importing whole stone age african villages into america, so precedent is set.

thats how you can explain to a 5 year old that this whole war on terror is a sham. the borders are totally wide open. you could literally drive an a-bomb into arizona or CA or TX and take out LA or phoenix.

[MMMMMM]

A million more may not make a big difference, but 500 suicide bombers might.

[brad]

would never happen. hell, we have 99cent double cheeseburgers here at mcdonalds.

[Boris]

OK you rascist pig, what's your opinion of Irish people. Do you think we should kill them also?

[brad]

M did vote for (more) death camps in the poll /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MMMMMM]

You are confusing criticism of culture with racism. Try being a little more incisive please.

The Palestinian culture is steeped in glorification of martyrdom and suicide bombing. You are ignoring the obvious. I don't think it has anything to do with genetics but it sure does have a lot to do with the customs that have developed in that small pocket of the world.

Regarding the Irish, since you ask, I think Irish immigrants are generally fine. However I have posted before that the IRA is a most despicable and terrorist organization which should be SWAT-teamed out ASAP. Note also that the tiny sliver of Irish society which endorses terrorist tactics is much, much narrower than the large segment of Palestinian society which endorses suicide bombing. The Palestinian culture, tragically, has become quite depraved. When a significant percentage of Palestinian children are even taught in schools--including kindergarten--that suicide bombing is the way to get to Paradise--when TV commercials show a happy kid running through the green grassy meadows of Paradise after he has become a martyr, and saying he is happy now in Paradise--when they hold acting-out dramas of martyrdom in kindergarten, complete with burials and praise of martyrdom--the culture has become profoundly misguided and twisted.

This view is not racist and is not related in the slightest to genetics. It is however quite factual.

[MMMMMM]

no I didn't, you didn't even have such a poll

[nicky g]

"The Palestinian culture, tragically, has become quite depraved. When a significant percentage of Palestinian children are even taught in schools--including kindergarten--that suicide bombing is the way to get to Paradise--when TV commercials show a happy kid running through the green grassy meadows of Paradise after he has become a martyr, and saying he is happy now in Paradise--when they hold acting-out dramas of martyrdom in kindergarten, complete with burials and praise of martyrdom--the culture has become profoundly misguided and twisted. "

What evidence is there for this being a widespread phenomenon throughout Palestinian society? I've not heard of the TV advert you mention.
Regardless, I would think that any society that has been under occupation and repression for so long is bound to become pretty twisted. Suffering does not enoble.

[B-Man]

Since when does observing a fact make you racist?

[andyfox]

There have been/will be a million suicide bombers?

[andyfox]

"you could literally drive an a-bomb into arizona or CA or TX and take out LA or phoenix"

And what, exactly, would be bad about this?

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[nicky g]

"you could literally drive an a-bomb into arizona or CA or TX and take out LA or phoenix"

Hasn't anyone seen Day 2 of 24 - they already did! Luckily Jack saved the day.

(It's real to me, ok?)

[Chris Alger]

It's fine if Israel creates the refugees, but a problem if the refugees exercise their legal and moral right to go home. It's fine for Israel to use violence to conquer all Palestine, but wrong for the Palestinians to even "dream" of having their country back. This because "all cultures aren't equal," Palestinians being particularly loathesome because 100 suicide bombings over 10 years that have killed a fraction of the IDF's civilian death toll proves that Palestinians, on the whole, "are used to using suicide bombings to try to solve their differences with others."

Why don't you just admit that you'rea neo-nazi racial supremacist and get on with it?

"Let me declare without hyperbole that the violence of the apartheid regime, as inhuman as it was, “was a picnic” (in the words of Archbishop Desmond Tutu) in comparison with the utter brutality of Israel’s occupation of Palestine. ...
We did not see tanks with guns blazing protecting armoured bulldozers reducing homes and bones to dust.

We did not see helicopter gunships “taking out” militants with their families, children and their homes with calculated precision!

In South Africa we did not see the destruction by bombing of apartment blocks such as Rafah in the Gaza Strip where children were sleeping. We did not see town centres such as Jenin and Ramallah razed to the ground reminiscent of the bloody suppression of the Jewish uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto during the Second World War. ...

Human beings when oppressed tend, sooner or later, to struggle for freedom. Repression of that just struggle leads to resistance. Often the more brutal the repression the more intense the resistance. The repressed are demonised as terrorists to justify ever-greater violations of their rights. We have the absurdity that the victims are blamed for the violence meted out against them. Both Apartheid and Israel are prime examples of terrorist states blaming the victims!"

Ronnie Kasrils MP, Minister of Water Affairs and
Forestry, South Africa
Nov. 30, 2002

[Boris]

I wasn't aware of any facts that M(oron) observed.

[B-Man]

Israel is not occupying "Palestine." Until the terrorists acknowledge that, there can not be peace.

Israel is occupying the West Bank and Gaza. Regardless of who has a stronger argument/moral right to these areas, practically speaking, Israel needs to cede these areas to the Palestinians for an independent state (while of course taking reasonable security measures for itself). The Palestinians need to renounce terrorism and recognize Israel's right to exist; they need to give up on their dream of pushing Israel into the sea.

Your comparison of Israel's occupation to the Holocaust is outrageous and offensive. When Israel starts setting up concentration camps for the purpose of committing genocide against the Palestinians, maybe then its actions can be discussed in the same sentence as the Holocaust. Until then, save the hyperbole for your fellow racists and anti-semites.

[ACPlayer]

Prior to middle of last century there was no culture of suicide bombing.

A little historical perspective and study would not hurt.

[ACPlayer]

pieces from today's news:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/afp/20030731/wl_mideast_afp/mideast_030731151726&e=2

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/07/31/marriage_arabs030731
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0731/p01s03-wome.html

[brad]

what do u expect everyone knows arabs (and thus arab women) are subhuman.

[MMMMMM]

As I've posted before, I don't save archives of evidence for discussions such as these. I read enough sources to form a somewhat knowledgeable opinion, then I generally move on. I can tell you however that I did read, within the last year, an article discussing such teachings in a significant percentage of Palestinian schools. And the percentage of Palestinians who sympathize with suicide bombings (and with Hamas' views) is higher yet still. Also nicky haven't you heard on the news reports etc.---suicide bombing and the glorification of it are by now integral parts of Palestinian culture. Isn't this obvious anyway??

Lots of societies have been under severe oppression throughout recent history but how many of those have developed a culture of suicide-bomber killing of innocents?

[MMMMMM]

Indeed. And neither were you aware that I have never advocated killing Palestinians per se; I only advocate killing terrorists.

It appears you are becoming too hotheaded to think clearly at this point. May you preserve your equanimity better at the poker tables than you do on these forums.

[MMMMMM]

Well, I don't see why the Palestinians can't accept living side by side with Israel. If they get a decent offer and don't take it they will be acting in an irredeemably stupid manner. Only an fool would throw away half a loaf because he can't get a full loaf, and starve in the process.

The Jews have a claim to that land too, you know. So let the Jews and the Arabs (Palestinians) split it already and be done with it.

I'm definitely not a neo-nazi racial supremacist. In fact I'm not a racist at all. But I am pretty adept at recognizing irrationality and inferior culture.

[Chris Alger]

I did not say that Israel is "occupying" Palestine but that it conquered Palestine (as defined by most Zionists before 1947) through violence. That is simply a fact of history. Your suggestion that Palestians reject accomodation with Israel indicates that history is something with which you have no interest.

Israel has no intention of "ceding" land to become an "independent state" but creating the world's largest outdoor prison. If by "reasonable security measures" you mean Sharon's wall then note that this amounts to the forcible seizure of 20% of the West Bank, including 80% of its fertile land and much of its water.

I did not compare the occupation to the Holocaust in general, Ronnie Kasrils (who is Jewish) compared it to German army tactics in the Warsaw ghetto. He was probably inspired by Israeli general Shaul Mofaz, now Israel's defense minister, who told the Israeli press that, when preparing for Jenin, Israel had "analyze[d] and internalize[d] the lessons of earlier battles -- even, however shocking it may sound, even how the German army fought in the Warsaw ghetto." (Ha'aretz, 25 January 2002 link (http://216.239.57.104/custom?q=cache:m2cYi_hvPsEJ:electroniciraq.net/news/493.shtml+mofaz+warsaw+ghetto&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)). The anology is apt and hardly likely to escape actual survivors of the Warsaw ghetto, such as self-described "Israeli patriot" Alex Herschaft, who wrote to the Washington Post that "After the war ended, we all said in unison, 'Never again!' And here it is we, the Jews, who are doing it to the Arabs."

I submit that your suggestion that we wait until Israel "starts setting up concentraton camps for the purpose of committing genocide," or until it is too late, before discussing Israel's crimes for what they are, is far more reflective of a Nazi mentality than Kasrils' eloquent plea for justice.

[Chris Alger]

The Palestinians "living side-by-side" with Israel is exactly what most of the Arab world has been trying to accomplish since the late 1970's; it has been the official position of the PLO since the Algiers conference in 1988. It isn't the Palestinians that reject accomodation, but the Israelis and their American donors. Israel has been fighting the notion of an independent Palestine next door to it for more than 50 years. Thanks to the likes of Bush, it still isn't even on the table.

[MMMMMM]

Well, Hamas and their ilk are irrevocably opposed to the concept. I'm not sure about Bush and others' positions on the matter.

[nicky g]

Many others have also developed a culture of terrorist bombings eg the IRA.

[brad]

'but how many of those have developed a culture of suicide-bomber killing of innocents? ''

israel does but w/o suicide.

[brad]

hamas was founded (ie, bankrolled by mossad) as a counterbalance to plo.

look it up.

[Boris]

C'mon M, just admit it. you know you want those pesky Palestinians exterminated. Go ahead Bro. don't worry about being PC or anything. Just let your true feelings come out.

[MMMMMM]

No, I don't at all, and you show very poor reading comprehension if you think that's what I think from my posts.

[MMMMMM]

"suicide-bomber killing of innocents" not "terrorist bombings" nicky. How many others have developed a culture of suicide bombings?

[nicky g]

Tamil Tigers for one. Most prolific suicide bombers in the world. But what difference does the death of the bomber make to the killing of innocents?

[MMMMMM]

Suicide bombing is a deadlier and more certain form of attack than plain terrorist bombing because it allows the bombers to penetrate and execute in areas they otherwise might not be able to. An attempted plain terrorist bombing might be more easily aborted or thwarted. So suicide bombing increases the overall number of those killed.


The reason I specified suicide bombing is because it is such a bizarre act that it helps to show how twisted Palestinian culture has become.

[ACPlayer]

It is truly ironic that the Jewish population of Israel is:

1. Causing people to live in the same type of Ghettos that they were subjected to in Poland etc.
2. Kicking people out of their homeland due to their faith as they themselves have been kicked out of their homes in the past.

... and not recognizing that the Palestinians have just as much right to fight for a home land as did Begin et al (freedom fighters or terrorists???) in the 40's and 50's.

The reality on the ground right now is that Israel (at least the right wingers) does not want peace. They would much prefer that the Palestinians in the WB simply cross the Jordan River into Jordan. Already plans have been approved for the expansion of settlements in the WB.

So, we have the right wingers in the Hamas and right wingers in Sharon et al, talking peace but making war on each other.

I say get rid of all "right wingers" as they are usually in the wrong. Now that was be justifiable!

[Cyrus]

"Suicide bombing is such a bizarre act that it helps to show how twisted Palestinian culture has become."

Palestinians getting all weird is one explanation. What others have you tried?

Sample:
- They are paid good money to kill themselves.
- They are actually on a dare challenge with high school pals.
- They are not told they are carrying explosive until it's too late.
- It's the ultimate act of desperation in that it proffers one's own life as sacrifice and the ultimate act of hatred in that it kills blindly the civilians of the enemy.

[MMMMMM]

So...you're suggesting that most of those reasons are not "weird?"