ROI for Sit N gos?

[PuppetMaster]

My ROI for $6, $11 one table sit n gos has been 35%.
I am curious how the rest of you guys are doing.

[Magician]

How many have you played? At one time I could boast a similar ROI but it seems after a string of bad luck that now my ROI is negative (I play mostly $20 and $30 ones 1 and 2 table sit 'n goes).

Do you mean that for every $110 of buy-ins (10 sit 'n goes) that you make $38 net profit?

I think I play sensibly but maybe I am really just negative EV and was fooled by randomness.

[PuppetMaster]

I have played about 250 $10, $6 one table NL and L tournaments.

I ahve heard some say that a tournament player should be winning at a rate of 50% ROI.

[Magician]

So you've made $1,000 playing 250 $10 + $1 Sit 'n Goes? That's really good.

So what tips can you share please? What common moves are there that pay off frequently at this level?

[Nottom]

I've only got about 50 recorded since I've been keeping track. Ranging from $10+1 to $50+5 mostly on Paradise, I'm getting an ROI of something like 65% (or should that be 165% ?). I'm probably on a bit of a hot streak though and that number would actually be higher if I wasn't 0 for 3 at the $50 buy-in tourneys.

Not sure if that helps.

I generally avoid the $6 tables just because they have the same entry fee as the $10, which could actually have a pretty significant impact on your ROI if you are concerned with it.

[DaNoob]

I'm only at 15% for this month, but hit 50% last. I've had some nasty beats in the last few games, which definitely have skewed my results downward.

Congrats on your great results. Please do share tips if you have any to spare...

[Greg (FossilMan)]

My current ROI for the $300 + 20 one table events on Pokerstars is over 140% (that's $460 of profit for every event entered).

However, since I've only been able to play in 9 of them, I don't expect this rate has any statistical significance. Nor do I expect it to hold up. ;-)

I also used to have an awesome record on the heads-up events, $210 and $105 buyin, but now I'm not much better than 60:40.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Magician]

What type of things do you do to win consistently?

I'm wondering if I have been a massive fish all along and never realized it.

[Nottom]

I have to say, I think the biggest change I made to my play which lead to my recent success is simply to avoid marginal situations in the early rounds of the tourney. Don't call reasonable raises with second best hands, don't just blindly throw all your chips in the pot with AK. Let the other players toss their chips around and knock each other out. You really don't lose much by just playing super tight for the first few levels and when you start loosening up a bit later you tend to get a little more respect and can steal a few pots to catch up before people really catch on.

[eMarkM]

This has been covered in the past on this board. I had a post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=238686&page=&view=&sb =5&o=) on this a couple of months ago. Play uber-tight in early stages, let loonies knock each other out, real tourney doesn't begin until blinds are 50/100.

Though he's much villified on RPG, Russ Georgiev had a sit and go strategy article there that echos what I and others have written in the past. His strategy takes the "play tight early" theme to an extreme. Here's a reprint of that post (http://www.google.com/groups?q=sit+group:rec.gambling.poker+author:newgc a&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=20030725151638.18249.00000381%40mb-m17.aol.com&rnum=3).

FWIW, I have about 80 sit n gos under my belt since I started keeping strict track of them and I'm at 50% ROI as of this day.

[Magician]

Funny I do that too - play super-tight early, etc.

Still, I am losing.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

here's a good starting point. You've been playing super-tight early. Now a player who seems a little aggressive open raises from MP. Maybe you've seen him raise often. Maybe you've folded your blind to 2 or 3 of his raises. This is the time to hit him with a big reraise regardless of your cards. If the raiser has been paying any attention, he has to give this reraise respect.

[Magician]

OK now I am being aggressive but I keep getting called by guys who are ahead.

/images/graemlins/frown.gif

It feels so hopeless. When I re-raise, I get called and they show me the goods.

[punkass]

It seems like you have the right strategy and you're just getting bad luck. Last night, my AA lost to AT, AK lost to AJ, 99 lost to 33, and flopped Ks with KQ and lost to runner runner flush. All in a row.

Take your hits. Avoid playing like them and throwing all your money in with KQ or JT. Keep playing tight. If the reason you are busting is the cards and bad luck flops and rivers, take it. If the reason you are busting is because you are in with crap you shouldn't, then you can change.

Determine which is which, and move on.

[KaptainKangoroo]

Little interesting story i have.

sat at a SnG, first hand dealt, i got called away by roommates and stuff, so i hit sit out and went to go see whats up. forgot about the tourney, came back, i had gone from 1000 chips to 700 chips, 5 people were already knocked out, 2 hands and the blinds hit 50/100, and i got back just intime to watch AA being auto folded. I STILL made it to the money however, and might have been able to win it if i had been paying attention and had a bit higher stacks...

[Magician]

OK another tragic story - 2 table sit 'n go, I'm in the top 4 in chips out of 12 players left, SB raises me to 4BB (50/100 round), I have A9o, I move in on him with about 2,100, SB has maybe 1,400 left to call with. SB flips over AQo, no help arrives, I am left with 700 chips.

Earlier I lost a coin flip (44 to AKo) against the same player who moved in on me from the SB to my BB and I decided to call but I had a massive stack then (reduced to a big one after that).

How can you be aggressive when people call so often?

[Copernicus]

I don't know of any manual dexterity test better than how long it takes you to click "I Am Back" when you see those pocket As from across the room! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I fell asleep early on in a 50/5 Party SnG (everyone seemed to need their full time for every fold..and thats what they did, fold). I was pissed at myself till I opened email the next day to find out I came in 3rd.

That brings up a question of strategy when someone seems to be disconnected and blinding out. If you're on the button and he's the BB, do you become more aggressive knowing its only the SB between you and stealing them?

I assume he retains his rights, so colluding to ensure that he blinds out before a slightly smaller stack (by throwing the smaller stack a few chips) is cheating? Or does he forfeit his rights by "walking away" and not returning for a period of time?

[punkass]

Well here's one leak. A9o is not strong to reraise with. you might call and see where you are, but why gamble with so much tourney left.

Avoid confrontations unless you are certain you are ahead early on.

[Magician]

Well yes - but shouldn't he have laid down the AQo?

I'm trying to be more aggressive and make plays but what is happening is my money is disappearing even faster!

[KaptainKangoroo]

the problem with that move, since you were betting with a weak hand, you were bluffing in a sense... Your bluff got called... Now if this was the first time you had raised big, and he was a tight player, he might lay it down.... if hes a very loose player, and you've done this before, of corse he would call.

[Nottom]

There was a post a few weeks ago in which a player had become disconnected and made it to the top 3 and the chip leader made a big bet that would have put the 2nd place guy all-in. While the player was thinking the chip leader told him to fold and the disconnected player would be blinded out in the next round. It was pretty much unanimous that this was a no no even though the player was disconnected.

I was in an odd situation like this in one of the paradise 1-on-1 tourneys a week or so ago, where I sat down and at first I just though my opponent was slow and tight, but soon realized he wasn't there and was having his blinds folded away. I felt a bit bad about it for a while, but figured I deserved it for having to sit and wait 30 sec for him to fold each hand.

[punkass]

If a player leaves, via disconnect or not, sucks. Especially when it's you. However, when there's one on the table, it becomes part of the game, which everyone who is paying attention should know about. Should you raise into the blinds when one of them is sitting out? I'd say you raise with a little more hands than normal. I would avoid all out bluffs though.

If it's 4 way, and the disconnected guy is still there, is it collusion for people to wait for him to be blinded out? No. I would have to say it is collusion if someone informs the table that the guy is away and he'll be blinded out in so many hands. Even though it should be apparant to even the idiot of idiots, you'll be surprised how often someone will go all in with a marginal hand when it's guaranteed money.

So after all that.....not collusion if everyone is smart, and no one needs to be informed. A line may be crossed if someone announces that fact that he is indeed away, and will be blinded out soon enough.

[Copernicus]

If you are playing super-tight early you have to do 4 things, IMO

1) If you do hit a hand, play it aggressively but not super-aggressively (eg if someone takes you all in, great, but play to win 10-15 BBs). If the table has noticed your tightness and you get any callers, a win here will set up lot of blinds steals.

2) If you do hit a hand and you have a decent stack, loosen up to connected suiters and somewhat lower pairs when, as is typical, there is no raising and you are in position. That shouldnt be often enough to appear loose, and between the hands you hit on the flop and the steals you're in position to build a big lead.

3) If you haven't gotten a hand all night, don't rush to go all in against the boss stack as soon as you do. Avoid those confrontations, and avoid playing multi-way drawing hands even if they have good odds. Bleeding away 3 or 4 big blinds now and then adds up to being just short of the money.

4) If you cant hit a hand early, be realistic...you will have to get lucky to win, so don't blow 2d or 3rd money being too aggressive with a below average stack. Blind your way into the money and hope to get lucky when it counts..heads up. You can almost see the steam coming out of the chip leader when he realizes the stack that was 20% of his is catching up. They press more and more and are very vulnerable to being trapped.

30%-50% ROI is a lot easier to attain when you have very few zeros, and some thirds to almost pay for the next tourney.

[Magician]

I like to limp in a lot with marginal drawing hands (sometimes offsuit connectors) if a hand is 4-handed or more (including the blinds). Should I save this for when there are more callers? Is this a leakage of chips?

I am more selective though once the blinds reach 25/50 and 50/100.

How do I play hands like KQo and QJo in EP say 6-handed? Seems very marginal - do you call, raise or muck? I tend to call if calling is 10-15% of my stack at most - should I just either raise or muck these?

[cferejohn]

Generally, I'm more prone to limp in NL when there are fewer players, rather than more. In limit, you want a lot of players when you limp for implied odds, but your implied odds in NL are your opponents entire stack (or doubling your own). If the chips are still fairly deep, you don't need more than one opponent. Pots in which multiple players commit a lot of chips are very rare.

[Magician]

NL Sit 'n Go

6-handed table, 18 player tournament, 12 players left

Blinds are 50/100, you have 1,500 chips

Dealt 77.

Do you raise or do you flat call?

I raise to 3BB then get two guys raising after me, I muck, they have QQ and KK respectively, and I wasted a precious 300 chips.

[cferejohn]

I raise there, but its close. That's usually the best hand. When you get re-raised, you can confidently lay it down.

[punkass]

I would fold the 77s. You are hoping to buy the blinds with your bet. Any call and the overcards on the board will scare you. Don't waste your precious chips. 12 left, there's plenty of tourney left. And you don't have the stack to play loose when it's shorthanded. Save your chips when you're short and not confident.

[cferejohn]

Also fine to fold here, in my opinion. I tend to play hyper-aggressive (quite possibly too aggressive) once the blinds are up and the tables are shorthanded. I think calling is the worst option, in any case. I think just calling over 5% of your chips UTG is a bad idea with any holding though (well, execpt maybe AA/KK if you are trying to trap).

Good things/bad things that happen if you:

Call

Good
You are only risking 100 chips.
If you flop a set, you may be able to make a lot of money.

bad
If you are raised, you probably need to fold.
People may raise now with hands they would have folded to a raise, possibly including hands you'd like to be up against (55, 66).
You probably end up in a multiway pot, so you are less able to bluff on a flop that hits no one.

Fold

Good
You don't risk any money.

Bad
You can't win any money.

Raise

Good
You may win the blinds immediately
If you get called in one place, you can make a convincing bluff at the pot.
You can still flop trips and win a sizable pot.
If you do get re-raised, it is a pretty easy laydown - you're a big dog or a small favorite.

Bad
You're risking 1/5 of your chips in early position with a hand that may not be best.
If you get raised, you will need to fold (also appears in 'Good' because I think its an easy decision - I like easy decisions)
If you get called and overcards fall (as they probably will), you're going to have to make a decision whether to bluff (possibly a tough decision - I hate making tough decisions).

Thought someone might be interested in an itemized list of all the crap that goes through my head when I get 77 UTG, 6 handed with a stack of 1500 and the blinds are 50/100. Maybe not though. I suppose those people have stopped reading anyway.

[Magician]

Hi,

I've tried playing fast post-flop in $20 Sit 'n Goes and I've lost even more money. Too many guys will call with marginal hands that are still better than mine.

It seems to me like the best strategy, then, at this level is to remain tight, but rather than trying to trap just play your monster hands fast since when you check they either:

a) check along with a marginal or weak hand
b) bet at you with a 2nd best hand

If you bet, they will either:

a) call with a 2nd best or marginal hand
b) muck a weak hand which they would have checked along with anyway

Also by playing tight it seems much more likely that I will sneak into the money - maybe a lot of 3rd place out of 9 finishes and quick elimination shortly after but if you can finish 3rd consistently each of those 3rds is in its own right a 64% ROI.

It seems the best approach is to save your aggression for before the flop.

[punkass]

[ QUOTE ]
Too many guys will call with marginal hands that are still better than mine.


[/ QUOTE ]

Don't play marginal hands, especially those that are beaten by other marginal hands.

[Guy McSucker]

Put yourself in his position. You don't say as much, but I'll assume it's been folded to him in the SB. You're the BB I think.

Here are his thoughts:

- Great, ace queen, that's a REAL HAND. I'll raise. 400 should do it.

- Oh he's reraised me. He obviously thinks I'm trying to steal. Well, he's in for a surprise: I have a REAL HAND. I call.

If this was the situation, your "re-steal" is reasonable, if he's the kind of player who would make the steal raise. You might even be called by a smaller ace who is thinking as above. If he's not a blind stealer, don't make the play.

If it wasn't folded to him, i.e. there were limpers, when he raises from the SB and puts 25% of his chips in, he thinks he's got a hand. You need to realise this and probably fold. (Not many players are good enough to think that you will think this and make the play as a bluff.)

If I'd opened in EP or MP with AQ and get reraised, I would usually fold, but if I've opened in a steal position I might well call.

Guy.

[Guy McSucker]

More often than not I fold 77 in early position unless I am really short stacked.

Guy.

[Guy McSucker]

Short handed you can raise with more or less anything from more or less anywhere if you think you have a good chance of winning the blinds. With KQ or QJ this is what you want. The trouble is, when the blind is 15% of your stack, you need to raise all-in, so you want a good chance of winning uncontested. You often have a very good chance in these tournaments.

If you're not going to make the steal raise with them, fold them.

One key thing about the two-table sit-n-gos is that you have to adapt to changing table sizes very quickly. When the tables are merged you must tighten up in early position again.

Guy.

[tpir90036]

1) if you are in EP you can't possibly know how many callers you are going to get.

2) even if you are in LP you don't want to get overcharged to see the flop for what is a marginal hand. you might think of limping earlier on if it's only 5% of your stack (bob ciaffone talks about this in his book).

i think the bottom line is definitely don't limp. either raise or fold. i would probably lean towards fold becasue if your raise is called and you have top pair, so-so kicker you will be out of position and won't know where you are. you don't want to leak 15% of your chips on this hand unless it is short-handed/late enough that you think your raise gives you a good chance to steal right then and there.

[curtains]

I read Russ Goergiev's article. He gives some decent advice in terms of playing tight early on, but also some pretty bad advice...such as either go allin or bet half your stack and fold? Folding JJ is also an error in the 15-30, just as folding TT is in the first round. For 15 bucks you have the chance to flop a set and double up against the psychos that will put in all their money with 2nd pair. Its definitely worth it. You simply dont call a 60-70 dollar raise with the hand, but you can surely limp with it.