Does the value of position change throughout the tournament?

Just wanted to pose a question as to how people here perceive position at different stages of the tournament?

I think it's sometimes adventageous to be first to act in the 'first to the pot wins' situations.....so when an aggressive player reraises CO or button raise.....is there a point to calling with good hands(but not monsters) if you know he'll go all in on just about any reasonable flop ...and if u don't hit you'll probably need to fold...so would it make more sense to push?

What about when the action is reduced to pushing? First aggressive player to act often wins the pot...so in these instances does positional advantage reverse?

I hope i am posing my question clearly....

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Just wanted to pose a question as to how people here perceive position at different stages of the tournament?

I think it's sometimes adventageous to be first to act in the 'first to the pot wins' situations.....so when an aggressive player reraises CO or button raise.....is there a point to calling with good hands(but not monsters) if you know he'll go all in on just about any reasonable flop ...and if u don't hit you'll probably need to fold...so would it make more sense to push?

What about when the action is reduced to pushing? First aggressive player to act often wins the pot...so in these instances does positional advantage reverse?

I hope i am posing my question clearly....

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positional consideration is important throughout. I believe it may be less important early on (for different reasons than you state). Early on there are a lot of donkeys and a lot of inexperienced players in the game that have no idea about how important position is. In some of these instances, you will see donks raising from UTG with A6o, simply because they have an A. When there are this many donkeys still in the game, the "gap concept" kind of goes out the window. I'm not suggesting that you should play marginal hands from a LP just because the UTG might be a donkey. What I am saying, is that this needs to be a consideration in factoring in your decisions.

Seriously, how many times have you seen UTG open for a 4 BB raise with TT or 99 and have MP who has not idea about the gap concept come over the top allin because he has a pocket pair of 5's.

So is it fair to say the value of position is like an upside down parabola during the tournament.... from early stages through the middle stages and finally during the final stages?

I am not discounting importance of position but I am asking whether there's a theoretical shift in its importance throughout the tournament?

not only that but does the value of position do a 180 at certain times in tournament? where UTG becomes more valuable than button? I am not sure whethere this have been discussed in poker theory or in this forum before but I can't find it...

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So is it fair to say the value of position is like an upside down parabola during the tournament.... from early stages through the middle stages and finally during the final stages?

I am not discounting importance of position but I am asking whether there's a theoretical shift in its importance throughout the tournament?

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i wouldn't say a parabola, i'd say a straight upward diagonal. position is even more important at the end of the tourny. Yes, aggression can pay off at a final table, but aggression is high risk/high reward, usually taking position into consideration (especially at a full final table). If you were to to say this was a parabola, it would only curve downward as it got down to fewer players.

[woodguy]

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So is it fair to say the value of position is like an upside down parabola during the tournament.... from early stages through the middle stages and finally during the final stages?

I am not discounting importance of position but I am asking whether there's a theoretical shift in its importance throughout the tournament?

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I think I know what you are getting at, but I think this is caused more by stack size, than stage of the tourney.

It just so happens that the stacks are quite shallow at the end of most online tourneys, so having the ability to "make the first bluff" after the flop becomes more important, because you are often making your opponent make a decision for his "tourney life", while you are only betting a portion of your own stack.

This happens in turbo sats too, often far from the when the seats gets handed out, due to how quickly everyone gets shallow.

If you look at a typical party tourney, at 20 tables often most everyone has less than 20BB's with 20 players left, but once it gets down to 10, the stacks get deeper, and regular positional advatages is normal, due to the fact that a lot players have enough chips to make multiple decisions on multiple streets.

Conversely, if you look at a Paradise tourney, the big stack at the FT often only has 12BB's and everyone else is 4-8. With everyone basicallly having one move (all in) most positional advantage is gone due to everyone basically having only one decision.

This highlights the need to stay aware of the stacks of your opponents.

A good example is if the BB has 8 BB's left and I have something like ATo on the button with 15BB's.

I'm probably raising all in here, so that the BB has to make one decision, and take away his ability to do a "stop & go" on me and force me to fold a missed flop, or make a tough call.

Your post brings up good points, and I think it can be summed up with that fact that, especially when stacks are shallow, you want to make sure you are the one putting in the "last raise", as often that is who wins the pot.

Regards,
Woodguy

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I am not discounting importance of position but I am asking whether there's a theoretical shift in its importance throughout the tournament?

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IMHO, absolutely!

Many times through the tournament you are likely to go from full table to partial table and back to full again.

Let's say hypothetically that you are UTG+1 and not in the hand. 4 to your left players go all in and the biggest stack wins. Now all of the sudden, you are UTG in a 7-handed game versus the "usual" UTG in a 10-handed game.

You position is "less" important because with fewer players at the table, you can possibly play a wider range of hands from UTG, as well as play them differently.

This is just one of many possible examples IMHO.

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not only that but does the value of position do a 180 at certain times in tournament? where UTG becomes more valuable than button? I am not sure whethere this have been discussed in poker theory or in this forum before but I can't find it...

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your missing the point that every time you lead out, you are not guaranteed to take the pot down and you are now building a pot. Are you firing again at the turn? Being first to act, is not an advantatge and does not guarantee a fold from the other player it only guarantees that you are building a pot, so that the percentage of times that you win a small pot of blinds and antes does not offset the times that you lose a bigger part of your stack. Being in position guarantees that you get to see what your opponents actions are first and to act accordingly. Those that are good at post flop play can even take it away from you even when you do fire out after the flop.

I think you miss understood what I am saying...I am talking about times where there's just about no postflop play....first to the pot has 80-90%of taking down pots...especially when it gets shorthanded of 7-8 or even less players......because other players risk getting busted or crippled if they cal you...and the gap concept still applies perhaps in a much looser fashion....this mostly concerns preflop pushes or preflop raise and all in on flop....discretion is obviously a huge factor...but I was just wonder whether UTG or early positions become much more valuable in final stages of the tournament....

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I think you miss understood what I am saying...I am talking about times where there's just about no postflop play....first to the pot has 80-90%of taking down pots...especially when it gets shorthanded of 7-8 or even less players......because other players risk getting busted or crippled if they cal you...and the gap concept still applies perhaps in a much looser fashion....this mostly concerns preflop pushes or preflop raise and all in on flop....discretion is obviously a huge factor...but I was just wonder whether UTG or early positions become much more valuable in final stages of the tournament....

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i think what your saying here is not necessarily UTG becomes more important, but AGGRESSION becomes more important. Again, aggression is high risk/high reward. I am not totally discounting your point, because it does give us reason to think it through, but I still think that there is no getting past high risk/high reward. The times that you are first in (push or not) after the flop only nets you a small pot when you win and loses you even more (like your whole stack) when you lose. This can mean the difference between you placing first or 27th. I agree that aggression has merit, but I think you can be aggressive from any position not just UTG. You also have to realize that you can only do this so many times before someone will use it against you for your tournament life.

Position after the flop becomes less important late in a tournament because usually players are all-in pre-flop or must either push or fold the flop. However, blind stealing becomes more important at this stage of the tournament, which means that position before the flop is more important. You can steal or even raise for value on the CO or button, when you must only convince 2-3 more players to fold, with hands that you would have to mucK under the gun, when there are 8-9 players who could wake up with a big hand behind you. Position becomes less about outplaying your opponents and more about game theory and recognizing steal opportunities.

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Position after the flop becomes less important late in a tournament because usually players are all-in pre-flop or must either push or fold the flop. However, blind stealing becomes more important at this stage of the tournament, which means that position before the flop is more important. You can steal or even raise for value on the CO or button, when you must only convince 2-3 more players to fold, with hands that you would have to mucK under the gun, when there are 8-9 players who could wake up with a big hand behind you. Position becomes less about outplaying your opponents and more about game theory and recognizing steal opportunities.

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good point.

you say "Position after the flop becomes less important late in a tournament because usually players are all-in pre-flop or must either push or fold the flop".

All in preflop is more true of the last 2 or 3 tables (much of which is short handed anyway), but not so much before then. Very good points though.

i think i should have clarified this a bit....when this phenomenon begins to occur, the tables are fairly shorthanded....obviously at a full table...it's much harder...more bullets to dodge...

I say last 2-3 tables, and especially final table...based on relative blinds/stack ratios in online play...

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i think i should have clarified this a bit....when this phenomenon begins to occur, the tables are fairly shorthanded....obviously at a full table...it's much harder...more bullets to dodge...

I say last 2-3 tables, and especially final table...based on relative blinds/stack ratios in online play...

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i'd like to hear some others opinions on this.

Assuming we are talking about pushing, I still think even the last 2 to 3 tables that it's not a matter of early position being favorable (quite the opposite due to the fact that you have more players to act after you), but that it is aggression that is favorable (regardless of position). After pushing in once or twice from UTG, you have to realize that someone will either have a big hand one of those times or catch on and call you when they realize what you are doing. Aggression = high risk/high reward. EP aggression = dangerously high risk/high reward. Any one else's comments? I seem to be repeating myself here.

nice thought provoking post cantloseon22

well high risk/high reward is what this game is about...I am obviously not advocating of doing this nonstop...but even if someone knows what i am doing it's pretty tough to call with anything but good hands....sure I am going all in on rag flop but can you call me with ace high and not be sure I caught a piece of the board? being up front in a shorthanded game creates a beneficial circumstance....big hands are not as easy to come by as you make it out to be especially in shorthanded games...and even if I get called by anything except monsters I still likely have live cards and a 3:2 or 2:1 underdog....early position becomes very useful especially against other aggressive players in late position with some chips to play post flop....all in flop...chances are they missed and can't call....and have 3 cards less to save them....plus if i can steal blinds 2-3 times that equats to a huge amount of chips in late stages of a tournament...I may very well double up this way....but obviously you have to have a chipstack of around avg or better so opponents calling you need to know if they loose they'll be dented, crippled or gone if they step in your way...