HU hand

[Scuba Chuck]

PartyPoker, Big Blind is t3000 (2 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com (http://www.pregopoker.com/hhconv/convert)

SB (t2205) <font color="white"> 4s 4d </font>
Hero (t5795)

Preflop: Hero is in Button with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Hero calls t150, <font color="red">SB raises t300</font>, Hero calls t300

Flop: (t1200) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
<font color="red">SB bets t300</font>, Hero calls t300

Turn: (t1800) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
<font color="red">SB bets t1305</font>, Hero calls t1305

River: (t900) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)

[GtrHtr]

I'd either push back into him pf or fold. It makes my life easier HU.

fold or raise the flop.

turn? might as well. man, this isn't ur hand is it?

[ZeroPointMachine]

In a vacuum I would say push pre-flop. But HU play is pretty much about everything but the cards and analyzing hands in a vacuum is pretty useless.

[tigerite]

I quite like it, he doesn't have an ace anyway, but that big blind must be a killer, t3000? He's surely all in preflop with that. LOL. Seriously I would just push preflop assuming the blinds are 150/300 and not 1500/3000..

[SuitedSixes]

I would have pushed pre-flop.
If I mistakenly didn't push pf, I push the flop.

[Snarf]

I think you played exactly how I would Scuba.

Induce bluffs from weaker hands rather than make them fold by raising as the others suggested...I might move in on the turn here...(don't remember the hand action if you did or needed too...)

sure it has some associated risk involved - and you could be behind...but the % of times you win here (in my limited experience) is FAR GREATER than the # of backfires and the # of times you're behind combined together...IMO

**pats self on back**

[jgunnip]

I am just pushing this in a 8000 chip game.

I assume you call the flop with the intention of pushing on the turn if villan doesn't bet. I like that play however, when he fires again I think you could let it go if you both had more chips, but here with t1300 left I think he's making a desperation bet trying to get you to fold often enough that you hav eto call.

[Snarf]

[ QUOTE ]
I assume you call the flop with the intention of pushing on the turn.... I like that play however, when he fires again....but here with t1300 left I think he's making a desperation bet trying to get you to fold often enough that you hav eto call.

[/ QUOTE ]

"often enough" ?

I find that more often than not Scuba has his opponent crushed here. If I pushed the turn, its w/the intention of getting the guy out before he hits some [censored] bottom two or inside striahgt on the river to double through. NOT w/ the intention of "scaring him off a better hand"

But since we're the chip leader ... I'm probably calling him down as he won't usually get lucky and he'll probably keep getting more and more desperate....

What worse hands would call if we pushed?

[jgunnip]

I think you misinterpreted my post.

Clearly hero pushes the turn when checked becuase he is ahead.

My "often enough" comment was regarding calling villan's turn bet.

[Snarf]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you misinterpreted my post.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been doing that a lot lately...I think I need to get more sleep. sorry dude.

Also - I think I misunderstood your 'often enough' to mean 'when villain bets the turn - you're behind more often than ahead.' Thats what I was really commenting about. Probably another misunderstanding...

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd either push back into him pf or fold. It makes my life easier HU.

fold or raise the flop.

turn? might as well. man, this isn't ur hand is it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Usually a min-bet increase means villain has something. What something means, I don't know yet.

In this hand, the ace is a scare card considering his pf actions. But two things calmed me. One, I'm the bigstack, so I can donk it a little. Two, he only min-bet. I would think that an Ax hand here is pushing with these huge blinds (and that an AAA is checking). Perhaps two pair min bets here...

[the shadow]

I'm with Suited and woulda pushed PF.

That said, assuming I didn't push PF, I agree with you. I'm putting villian on a missed broadway hand. I think that you're probably ahead and would call the turn.

But here's my question for you -- if the turn is a T, J, Q, or K, are you going to call villian's push?

If yes, then that seems to me to argue for pushing the flop.

If no, then that also seems to me to argue for pushing the flop.

So I'm back with Suited and woulda pushed the flop, even if I hadn't pushed PF.

The Shadow

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm with Suited and woulda pushed PF.

That said, assuming I didn't push PF, I agree with you. I'm putting villian on a missed broadway hand. I think that you're probably ahead and would call the turn.

But here's my question for you -- if the turn is a T, J, Q, or K, are you going to call villian's push?

If yes, then that seems to me to argue for pushing the flop.

If no, then that also seems to me to argue for pushing the flop.

So I'm back with Suited and woulda pushed the flop, even if I hadn't pushed PF.

The Shadow

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if a Q hits on the turn, this is an easy call.

If I push the flop, is he calling me?

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
I quite like it, he doesn't have an ace anyway, but that big blind must be a killer, t3000? He's surely all in preflop with that. LOL. Seriously I would just push preflop assuming the blinds are 150/300 and not 1500/3000..

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a pretty much automatic push with 300 big blind against any opponent.

[the shadow]

[ QUOTE ]
Well if a Q hits on the turn, this is an easy call.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. It's late. But you didn't answer the question.

[ QUOTE ]
If I push the flop, is he calling me?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably no.

[The Yugoslavian]

thread,

Why isn't hero pushing this thing at any point in the hand?

WTF is going on?!?!

Did I just wake up in crazytown???

HU with huge blinds you gotta get it get it.

Yugoslav

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
PartyPoker, Big Blind is t3000 (2 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com (http://www.pregopoker.com/hhconv/convert)

SB (t2205) <font color="white"> 4s 4d </font>
Hero (t5795)

Preflop: Hero is in Button with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Hero calls t150, <font color="red">SB raises t300</font>, Hero calls t300

Flop: (t1200) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
<font color="red">SB bets t300</font>, Hero calls t300

Turn: (t1800) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
<font color="red">SB bets t1305</font>, Hero calls t1305

River: (t900) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)

[/ QUOTE ]

All looks pretty standard to me.

[Maulik]

As played: I'd fold the turn, you've got chips and his betting is consistent with him having the Ace.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd either push back into him pf or fold. It makes my life easier HU.

fold or raise the flop.

turn? might as well. man, this isn't ur hand is it?

[/ QUOTE ]
A reraise preflop here is bad. You are risking doubling up your opponent to a bigger stack than you only in hopes that he is bluffing somewhat and will fold. If you are called, you are never ahead here, and can at best hope for your opponent to have 88 or so.

Of course, a push preflop would have been fine.

[Snarf]

Looks like I'm the only one thats w/ya on this one Scuba.

I know its unorthodox and 'un-standard.'

...but I still think you stack him here FAR enough of the time to make it worth while.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]


All looks pretty standard to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can never tell if you're serious. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[pergesu]

Time to respond without looking at the other replies first.


Alright preflop I have no problem with the call. You're getting 3-1, have position for the remainder of the hand, and have a decent hand.

What kind of hands does he raise with preflop do you think? Only an ace? Some opponents will try to steal with a lot of hands if you complete from the button (and rightly so, to everyone reading). If it's only an ace though, you're in trouble. Still, getting 5-1 on the flop is pretty tough to get away from.

When you call the flop, you have to call the turn, since he could be desperation betting his KJo, and you're getting 2.3-1..

This hand is entirely dependant on read. If you think he'll only raise and then CB an ace, you have to dump it on the flop. Realize that when you call on the flop you've decided he probably doesn't have an ace, and thus are going to have to call his stack on the turn. So really, imo you're the only one that can say what the proper line is here...sometimes I fold quickly, sometimes I call quickly...in a vacuum I probably fold.

[curtains]

Everyone who thinks calling here preflop is even somewhat reasonable is killin me.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone who thinks calling here preflop is even somewhat reasonable is killin me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there might be a bigger issue at hand here Curtains.

[curtains]

Theres no bigger issue, anyone who doesnt move allin here preflop is completely insane. This is not a minor point. Calling preflop from the SB is flat out terrible. The HH looks weird so maybe I got the action wrong, but if thats what happened, the rest of the hand is irrelvant because the preflop play is so bad.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Theres no bigger issue, anyone who doesnt move allin here preflop is completely insane.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that may be true, but not my point.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Theres no bigger issue, anyone who doesnt move allin here preflop is completely insane.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that may be true, but not my point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well to post a hand asking a question about one thing, when BY FAR the most glaring error of the hand is another thing, you should try to actually focus on the part of the hand that was clearly played badly, instead of worrying about some random postflop crap that shouldnt have happened anyway.

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone who thinks calling here preflop is even somewhat reasonable is killin me.

[/ QUOTE ]

fwiw I thought the BB was 150 when I first responded..I read it seriously within 2 minutes of being woken up by a loud knock on my door.

Blind of 300 it's a no-brainer push.

curtains, do you think completing would be horrible if blinds were 75/150?

[curtains]

I would lean towards completing preflop if the blinds were 75-150

[adanthar]

Scuba...he has less than 8 BB. There is just no way you are going to play Q9o profitably enough postflop to make up for the...however many BB you make from pushing this.

I could see it with 76s against some guys. Maybe. Kinda. But not Q9o.

[curtains]

Its worth about a minimum of 8-9 bucks at the $215s to push preflop. Thats adding 4% to your ROI in one hand.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
Theres no bigger issue, anyone who doesnt move allin here preflop is completely insane. This is not a minor point. Calling preflop from the SB is flat out terrible. The HH looks weird so maybe I got the action wrong, but if thats what happened, the rest of the hand is irrelvant because the preflop play is so bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some people here actually play poker.

BTW, ever heard of changing up your play?

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
Theres no bigger issue, anyone who doesnt move allin here preflop is completely insane. This is not a minor point. Calling preflop from the SB is flat out terrible. The HH looks weird so maybe I got the action wrong, but if thats what happened, the rest of the hand is irrelvant because the preflop play is so bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a push PF almost always. However, even at this level I think it pays to vary your play HU. Call, raise, push, all with various hands at various times.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Theres no bigger issue, anyone who doesnt move allin here preflop is completely insane. This is not a minor point. Calling preflop from the SB is flat out terrible. The HH looks weird so maybe I got the action wrong, but if thats what happened, the rest of the hand is irrelvant because the preflop play is so bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some people here actually play poker.

BTW, ever heard of changing up your play?

[/ QUOTE ]


Daliman, not moving allin is simply terrible. When you say "some people here actually play poker", what you are actually saying is "some people here play badly".

You can continue to be manly and mix up your play and "take flops", I'll continue to take my immediate minimum of $9 in EV in a single hand. The way you talk youd figure you make $150 per tourney to pass up such an edge.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Theres no bigger issue, anyone who doesnt move allin here preflop is completely insane. This is not a minor point. Calling preflop from the SB is flat out terrible. The HH looks weird so maybe I got the action wrong, but if thats what happened, the rest of the hand is irrelvant because the preflop play is so bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a push PF almost always. However, even at this level I think it pays to vary your play HU. Call, raise, push, all with various hands at various times.

[/ QUOTE ]


No it doesnt pay at all to call preflop with Q9o. Anyone who calls here with Q9o preflop is making a terrible play and doesnt understand sit and gos. I should just stop talking about this, because if this is how people are regularly playing, Its not really to my benefit to educate them.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, ever heard of changing up your play?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want to change up your play, you can complete QQ or 76s or something where it doesn't cost you some giant amount of expectation to see a flop over pushing.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Theres no bigger issue, anyone who doesnt move allin here preflop is completely insane. This is not a minor point. Calling preflop from the SB is flat out terrible. The HH looks weird so maybe I got the action wrong, but if thats what happened, the rest of the hand is irrelvant because the preflop play is so bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a push PF almost always. However, even at this level I think it pays to vary your play HU. Call, raise, push, all with various hands at various times.

[/ QUOTE ]


No it doesnt pay at all to call preflop with Q9o. Anyone who calls here with Q9o preflop is making a terrible play and doesnt understand sit and gos. I should just stop talking about this, because if this is how people are regularly playing, Its not really to my benefit to educate them.

[/ QUOTE ]

You just don't get it, and I don't care to get into all that it would take to explain it to you. Pushing is fine, but to say it is optimal because it = $9 and that is the end of it is obstinate.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BTW, ever heard of changing up your play?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want to change up your play, you can complete QQ or 76s or something where it doesn't cost you some giant amount of expectation to see a flop over pushing.

[/ QUOTE ]
$6-9 is not some giant amount at the $215 level.

P.S. Pushing 67s is just as, if not MORE profitable than pushing Q9o. Check it out.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BTW, ever heard of changing up your play?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want to change up your play, you can complete QQ or 76s or something where it doesn't cost you some giant amount of expectation to see a flop over pushing.

[/ QUOTE ]
$6-9 is not some giant amount at the $215 level.

P.S. Pushing 67s is just as, if not MORE profitable than pushing Q9o. Check it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

$7-9 is not some giant amount at the $215 level? You already have about $860 in equity. $9 is a RIDICULOUSLY large amount of money to make in a single hand in a $215 sit and go, especially when headsup and with such a high amount of EV to begin with. Some people's ROIs are 10%, which is pretty decent. Making almost half of that in one hand is pretty signifigant if you ask me, and with most player's calling ranges, you will make about that much.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Theres no bigger issue, anyone who doesnt move allin here preflop is completely insane. This is not a minor point. Calling preflop from the SB is flat out terrible. The HH looks weird so maybe I got the action wrong, but if thats what happened, the rest of the hand is irrelvant because the preflop play is so bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a push PF almost always. However, even at this level I think it pays to vary your play HU. Call, raise, push, all with various hands at various times.

[/ QUOTE ]


No it doesnt pay at all to call preflop with Q9o. Anyone who calls here with Q9o preflop is making a terrible play and doesnt understand sit and gos. I should just stop talking about this, because if this is how people are regularly playing, Its not really to my benefit to educate them.

[/ QUOTE ]

You just don't get it, and I don't care to get into all that it would take to explain it to you. Pushing is fine, but to say it is optimal because it = $9 and that is the end of it is obstinate.

[/ QUOTE ]

By the way how come anyone ever strongly disagrees with my math, their reasoning is "Its too complicated and you obviously dont get it so I won't bother explaining it to you".

There is no way in hell limping has a higher expectation than raising, under basically any circumstance in this spot.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
By the way how come anyone ever strongly disagrees with my math, their reasoning is "Its too complicated and you obviously dont get it so I won't bother explaining it to you".

There is no way in hell limping has a higher expectation than raising, under basically any circumstance in this spot.


[/ QUOTE ]

Because you always quote #'s as the gospel.

Like I said, I ain't gonna waste my time teaching a 20% ROI guy poker.

[GtrHtr]

curtains, please note my preface. "I think this is a push PF almost always." If you think 100% PF push I'll go with that.

My other comment was concerning HU play in general. I think varying play HU, although dependent on the level of the blinds, the cards you get and your opponent, is an important part of being an effective HU player.

This is my opinion. If you disagree, I'm willing to listen with an open mind. Honestly.

[curtains]

I do vary my play, just not in a spot like this with smoething like Q9o. If you want to vary it with AJo thats fine, because you are at least inducing a push. In this spot you would have to fold if they make any reasonable raise

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
By the way how come anyone ever strongly disagrees with my math, their reasoning is "Its too complicated and you obviously dont get it so I won't bother explaining it to you".

There is no way in hell limping has a higher expectation than raising, under basically any circumstance in this spot.


[/ QUOTE ]

Because you always quote #'s as the gospel.

Like I said, I ain't gonna waste my time teaching a 20% ROI guy poker.

[/ QUOTE ]


More like 19% ROI after this set..

[GtrHtr]

That makes perfect sense.