Playing from the blinds: 9Ts

[Scuba Chuck]

PartyPoker, Big Blind is t30 (10 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com (http://www.pregopoker.com/hhconv/convert)

UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t755)
MP1 (t675)
MP2 (t580)
MP3 (t1275)
CO+1 (t505)
CO (t1255)
Button (t760)
Hero (t785)
BB (t610)

Preflop: Hero is in SB with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif
<font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, <font color="gray">UTG+1 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP1 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP2 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP3 folds</font>, CO+1 calls t15, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>, <font color="gray">Button folds</font>, Hero calls t5, BB checks

Flop: (t45) J/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
<font color="red">Hero bets t45</font>, BB calls t45, <font color="red">CO+1 raises t125</font>, Hero ...

[BrettP217]

lay it down

[tigerite]

I'd have gone for a check-raise here. As you've played it though, 3-bet push.

[Pasterbator]

Well, i'm certainly not laying this down. I think I'm pushing this everytime. If you call, I don't think you're getting paid off if you hit your flush. You're ahead of everything but J9, 44, 99, JJ, and you have tons of FE. Push this shtuff.

[SuitedSixes]

If you are going to fold vs. resistance with 2nd pair and 4 to a flush, then you need to start folding these hands pre-flop. Otherwise you are hoping to flop made hands, and that doesn't happen enough for you to be profitable.

[Pasterbator]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd have gone for a check-raise here. As you've played it though, 3-bet push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I like a checkraise. If he calls your checkraise, whats your play on the turn if you miss everything? I prefer to get it all in on the flop if i can.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to fold vs. resistance with 2nd pair and 4 to a flush, then you need to start folding these hands pre-flop. Otherwise you are hoping to flop made hands, and that doesn't happen enough for you to be profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why the tone? I didn't show hero's action. I'm aware of my pot equity here. The question is, do I have enough FE to make this worthwhile often enough?

[SuitedSixes]

A) No tone, real, implied, imagined or otherwise.
B) Reply was not to OP, but to responder who said fold.

[Snarf]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to fold vs. resistance with 2nd pair and 4 to a flush, then you need to start folding these hands pre-flop. Otherwise you are hoping to flop made hands, and that doesn't happen enough for you to be profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

spot on.

I default to push - but might soft play if I sense my FE dropping like the rain has been lately...

No way I'm folding.

[Little Lew]

Quote:
If you are going to fold vs. resistance with 2nd pair and 4 to a flush, then you need to start folding these hands pre-flop. Otherwise you are hoping to flop made hands, and that doesn't happen enough for you to be profitable.




gotta say that even a weak-tightie newbie like myself would push as fast as I could.

[tigerite]

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I'd have gone for a check-raise here. As you've played it though, 3-bet push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I like a checkraise. If he calls your checkraise, whats your play on the turn if you miss everything? I prefer to get it all in on the flop if i can.

[/ QUOTE ]

The check-raise would be all in, [censored] how much is in the pot if he bets or whatever, I want to take it down and have a huge hand with a bazillion outs.

[Pasterbator]

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I'd have gone for a check-raise here. As you've played it though, 3-bet push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I like a checkraise. If he calls your checkraise, whats your play on the turn if you miss everything? I prefer to get it all in on the flop if i can.

[/ QUOTE ]

The check-raise would be all in, [censored] how much is in the pot if he bets or whatever, I want to take it down and have a huge hand with a bazillion outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to hear others thoughts on this play. Sure you can take down the (REALLY) tiny pot, but this way you're really not getting any value out of your big hand. By 3 bet pushing, it looks more like a SB special 2 pair or something of the sort. We would be happy to take it down on the flop (with more money in the pot) but if we get called, we have "a bajillion outs."

[Snarf]

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I'd have gone for a check-raise here. As you've played it though, 3-bet push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I like a checkraise. If he calls your checkraise, whats your play on the turn if you miss everything? I prefer to get it all in on the flop if i can.

[/ QUOTE ]

The check-raise would be all in, [censored] how much is in the pot if he bets or whatever, I want to take it down and have a huge hand with a bazillion outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to hear others thoughts on this play. Sure you can take down the (REALLY) tiny pot, but this way you're really not getting any value out of your [p]big hand. [/b] By 3 bet pushing, it looks more like a SB special 2 pair or something of the sort. We would be happy to take it down on the flop (with more money in the pot) but if we get called, we have "a bajillion outs."

[/ QUOTE ]

By - big hand - you mean our big draw?

Sure we're the favorite on the flop to nearly every hand - but if we wait for the turn - we're usually a 2:1 or 3:2 dog...the pot may become bigger but our odds of winning are less... I'd only move in on the turn if I sensed weakness in the villian and knew my FE to be through the roof.

Note: I've "slowplayed" exactly one draw. I had 2nd pair, and an OESFD on the flop.

We don't have a hand worth 'slowplaying' here

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
The question is, do I have enough FE to make this worthwhile often enough?


[/ QUOTE ]

Villain had slow played AA.

My question still stands. I think this play is purely about this situation. Here's another hand where I think this question applies that occurred yesterday.

10 handed, blinds 10/15

Hero is BB dealt K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
6 players see a flop.

Flop (t90) is 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif
Action: checked to MP who bets t75, CO calls, Hero c/r allin....

[Pasterbator]

[ QUOTE ]


By - big hand - you mean our big draw?

Sure we're the favorite on the flop to nearly every hand - but if we wait for the turn - we're usually a 2:1 or 3:2 dog...the pot may become bigger but our odds of winning are less... I'd only move in on the turn if I sensed weakness in the villian and knew my FE to be through the roof.

Note: I've "slowplayed" exactly one draw. I had 2nd pair, and an OESFD on the flop.

We don't have a hand worth 'slowplaying' here

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to slowplay at all. I want to 3 bet push as Scuba did, not checkraise push as tigrite wanted to. It adds chips to the pot, and makes our hand look as strong as possible. There will be 90 chips in the pot if we checkraise push, but if we 3 bet push, there are 210. I think it gives us more credibility for a strong hand, and increases our FE.

And i consider this hand a big hand because even tho its not a MADE hand, its still a favorite against most hands on this flop. Maybe i should have used the term "huge draw." My appologies.

[tigerite]

I think that having t210 in the pot if we 3-bet push decreases our FE because there's more chips in there, personally..

And Scuba, the KQs hand is fine as well, I'd probably do the same.

[Snarf]

I misunderstood you Pastorbator...sorry...

Its a toss up I think...w/the 3bet you win more - but you're also encouraging a call from a legitimate hand more...

W/the CR you're winning less - but probably winning it outright more often.

[Pasterbator]

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I think that having t210 in the pot if we 3-bet push decreases our FE because there's more chips in there, personally..


[/ QUOTE ]

I think it increases our FE just because it gives our hand more credibility than check-raising and putting anoter 700 chips into a 90 chip pot.

But i'm sure both are viable options.

[pooh74]

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The question is, do I have enough FE to make this worthwhile often enough?


[/ QUOTE ]

Villain had slow played AA.

My question still stands. I think this play is purely about this situation. Here's another hand where I think this question applies that occurred yesterday.

10 handed, blinds 10/15

Hero is BB dealt K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
6 players see a flop.

Flop (t90) is 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif
Action: checked to MP who bets t75, CO calls, Hero c/r allin....

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I think the main difference is pot to stack ratios in each hand. In the above hand you will more often only be called by hands where your K and Q are no good. In the first hand there is "enough" to warrant taking that risk. I'm not saying that the above hand isnt a good CR AI, just maybe less so.

[Snarf]

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I think that having t210 in the pot if we 3-bet push decreases our FE because there's more chips in there, personally..


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I think it increases our FE just because it gives our hand more credibility than check-raising and putting anoter 700 chips into a 90 chip pot.

But i'm sure both are viable options.

[/ QUOTE ]

True - but conversely you're laying out better odds for him to call with.

[yvesaint]

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True - but conversely you're laying out better odds for him to call with.

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yeah, but the only hands that he has you crushed with is a set/2-pair

[Pasterbator]

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True - but conversely you're laying out better odds for him to call with.

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yeah, but the only hands that he has you crushed with is a set/2-pair

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats basically my point. A call is not the worst thing in the world.

[Snarf]

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True - but conversely you're laying out better odds for him to call with.

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yeah, but the only hands that he has you crushed with is a set/2-pair

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I think this is one of those conversations where we actually pretty much agree with each other, but yet we still go back and forth...

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]


I think the main difference is pot to stack ratios in each hand. In the above hand you will more often only be called by hands where your K and Q are no good. In the first hand there is "enough" to warrant taking that risk. I'm not saying that the above hand isnt a good CR AI, just maybe less so.

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Why do you say that? I understand what you mean, but why aren't the same possible hand combos in either case?

[pooh74]

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I think the main difference is pot to stack ratios in each hand. In the above hand you will more often only be called by hands where your K and Q are no good. In the first hand there is "enough" to warrant taking that risk. I'm not saying that the above hand isnt a good CR AI, just maybe less so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you say that? I understand what you mean, but why aren't the same possible hand combos in either case?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a part of the value in the second hand is having 1 pair type hands call where your other outs are good...if they call less frequently then your push is losing value. In the original hand, youll get calls from hands like TP where you have outs besides the flush...you're getting calls more frequently because of the chips in the pot.

Just ignore me if this isnt making any sense...I have a head cold.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
In the original hand, youll get calls from hands like TP where you have outs besides the flush...you're getting calls more frequently because of the chips in the pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you referring to the backdoor straight? Also, are you referring to the 2 9s that beat 2 pair? I see far more similarities to these hands than differences, in terms of pot equity.

[pooh74]

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In the original hand, youll get calls from hands like TP where you have outs besides the flush...you're getting calls more frequently because of the chips in the pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you referring to the backdoor straight? Also, are you referring to the 2 9s that beat 2 pair? I see far more similarities to these hands than differences, in terms of pot equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes I am referring to those outs...and they are obviously similar...the only difference I was pointing out, and its not so important, is that pushing the KQ hand is more of an overbet if you will, and wins more tiny pots and loses more big ones than hand 1...that is all I was saying.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]

yes I am referring to those outs...and they are obviously similar...the only difference I was pointing out, and its not so important, is that pushing the KQ hand is more of an overbet if you will, and wins more tiny pots and loses more big ones than hand 1...that is all I was saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not trying to quarrel, I'm more trying to understand.

I don't understand your reference to small and big pots. Again, with regards to chips in the middle, once I moved allin, the pots were again, similar.

[pooh74]

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yes I am referring to those outs...and they are obviously similar...the only difference I was pointing out, and its not so important, is that pushing the KQ hand is more of an overbet if you will, and wins more tiny pots and loses more big ones than hand 1...that is all I was saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not trying to quarrel, I'm more trying to understand.

I don't understand your reference to small and big pots. Again, with regards to chips in the middle, once I moved allin, the pots were again, similar.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didnt think you were trying to quarrel...any tone I exhibit is frustration with myself.

I was just seeing it as the overall EV of the hand and an opponent's tendency to call with lesser holdings...in hand 1, with more in the pot relative to what villain has to call, youll get calls from worse hands...in hand 2, you'll get less frequent calls by hands that you are ahead of. therefore you stand to profit more in the long run in hand 1?

Since I love to nitpick...we're also dogs vs.:

T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Q /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
K /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/spade.gif
A /images/graemlins/club.gif A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
etc.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]

I was just seeing it as the overall EV of the hand and an opponent's tendency to call with lesser holdings...in hand 1, with more in the pot relative to what villain has to call, youll get calls from worse hands...in hand 2, you'll get less frequent calls by hands that you are ahead of. therefore you stand to profit more in the long run in hand 1?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just want to make sure we have all the info clear.

Hand 1:
[ QUOTE ]

Flop: (t45) J/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
<font color="red">Hero bets t45</font>, BB calls t45, <font color="red">CO+1 raises t125</font>, Hero ...

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 2:
[ QUOTE ]

Flop (t90) is 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif
Action: checked to MP who bets t75, CO calls, Hero c/r allin....

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, what is it about Hand 1 that makes it less likely that villain is NOT calling my 3bet?

Furthermore:
Hand 1: 260 dead chips before I move allin
Hand 2: 240 dead chips before I move allin

I don't know how you weight backdoor str8 draw, but I give you that we have 2 more strong outs with the first hand over the second. Other than that, I see these hands as very very similar.

I go all in here with both hands every time