Who value bets here?

[vkotlyar]

loose 10/20 game w terrible calling stations now bumped up to 15/30 cause they are all stuck. Game tightened up for the first 5 mins, but now everything is back to normal. 2 limpers b4 me, and i limp in EMP w A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (any1 fold?) A stuck MP raises ( he has some pocket pair) and 2 callers behind him. one of the blinds plays. 7 to the flop: AJ5 rainbow. Checked to me, i bet, 4 callers, all calling stations ( sorry Kenny /images/graemlins/smile.gif ). Turn is a King. I bet, still 4 callers. River is a 3 (no flush). Checked around and my hand is good. Any1 value bet here? I feel that i am missing a lot of river bets, but is this pushing it? Thanks
Vitaly

[Rushmore]

I think I'll be in the minority, but I do NOT value bet top pair/no kicker on the river from any position when there were 4 callers on the turn.

If the board had paired bottom card on the river, you might make the bet because the potential negative EV of your weak kicker is eliminated.

But even then, I dunno. I'm happy to pick up the pot without any more risk in this situation.

[Dante]

If your "calling stations" are true calling stations (and will just call the river with a hand like 2 pair not raise) I would bet. Also, you didn't mention if the raiser was still in after the flop (7 to the flop, 4 other call the flop and turn).

Dante

[adrianus]

I don't like playing A7s from EM position. How good is your hand if raised? Even an A can't make you too happy then.
Anyways, seems like a lot of callers BEHIND you. I would bet if I was last to act. Otkerwise I'll be more than happy to win with top pair.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like playing A7s from EM position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding a suited Ace after two limpers is throwing away EV.

As for betting the river, there's a good reason you haven't been raised on either the flop or turn. Nobody can beat a pair of Aces. So, yes, you bet.

[J'adoube]

I find this very hard to believe ,"Folding a suited Ace after two limpers is throwing away EV."

You flop a flush draw less than 15% of the time and completed about 1/3, and your A could be dominated.

Is Axs really supposed to played behind 2 limpers no matter what?

Interested in your response.

[nykenny]

Truth was that you were running hot and Open Limped! /images/graemlins/shocked.gif I was among one of the calling stations (thanks) with a J6o trying to catch good, hehe. But of course I don't call river. I believe you will get called at least 2 places by the K and maybe another J. they are brain dead and believe in nothing but poker gods...

Hey i am running so good, i can be a calling station that i always wanted to be now /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[JTG51]

I'd definitely call preflop and I'd definitely bet the river. No one has given you any reason to believe that you don't have the best hand yet, and that river card is unlikely to change anything.

[skp]

For a lot of reasons, there should be a river bet here. It's a near cinch that the players to the left of the guy with the A7 don't have an ace (i.e. because they would almost always raise on the flop or turn). There might be a better ace checking the flop to the right of hero (because he might have been scared of the PFR who was to hero's left) but that's not reason enough for Hero to check the river. The pot is so damn big that you are bound to get at least one call and perhaps two on the river by weaker hands.

As for the preflop limp with A7s which another poster questioned...well, why not? You have got 2 limpers before you already. There is a limping frenzy happenin' here...just about a perfect situation with a suited Ace or small pocket pair. If it gets raised behind you, c'est la vie. A raise would be less than ideal but the hand is good enough (in that situation) to withstand a raise.

I would even limp UTG with A7s under the right game conditions (such as the one that Hero was facing) in order to kick start the limping frenzy.

[nykenny]

forgot to answer the question. Yes, I will VB the river, cause i think i might get paid my 2 or more players. so most of the time i will be ahead in here guaging from the action so far. and the times i get out-drawn, it's unlikely i will get raised. plus if i do get raised, it's not so hard of a lay down on river (when i am playing straight up).

anyway i am on my third tilting sessions now and managed to win in all of them. let me see how long i can be on tilt and still win in this game /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[adrianus]

I think playing A7s works in passive games only. If I knew to get 6 callers it's definately EV /images/graemlins/grin.gif. If the game is not passive I think it's better to play this only in late position.

If you bet the river, what do you do if you get raised?

[Dynasty]

Playing any Axs and any pair is profitable UTG in a loose-passive game like this. This is just basic pre-flop knowledge. There's no chance I'm folding it after two limpers.

If you want the HEPFAP reference, go to pg. 166.

[Vehn]

[ QUOTE ]
As for betting the river, there's a good reason you haven't been raised on either the flop or turn. Nobody can beat a pair of Aces. So, yes, you bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't good logic. Let's say all 9 opponents saw the flop. You bet and everyone called, and you bet the turn and everyone called. What's the chances you have the best hand on the river? Very small. So where's the cutoff then? I dunno. But I think you have a river bet here.

As far as playing this hand I probably would unless the game had some very wild players to act behind me.

[vkotlyar]

Kenny: I deffenitely did NOT open limp, even though i was running hot last night. You were sitting to my right, and i believe that you were not a blind ( what the hell u doin in there w J6o anyhow, raise or no raise /images/graemlins/smile.gif ). As for the game, its not passive, but still very lose. Normally, i fold a small suited ace in EP with no one in the pot. However, i expected the pot to be 6-way and with a raise. i bet the flop for information. If i get raiased, i peel for a 2nd pair and muck on the turn. I also muck if i get raised on the turn. The playeres are so bad, playing just for a flush is probably profitable. They will draw to str8s and pay off w 2nd pair w a flush on board. They will also draw to if they have ANY flush card with 3 of the same suit and pay off the river. So if i can expext multiway action, and you surely can in a game full of stuck players, some of which are calling down a strong player w J6o, i will never lay down a suited ace. Just to give an expample, bout a week ago, i had AdJd on the button and called a raise. Six way action. Flop came KdQd4d. There was a bet on the flop and 4 callers. Turn 6d. There was a bet and a call, and i raised. Both called and both called the river. I had the nuts and 2nd nuts, and they both paid off w small diamonds. So, how can you ever throw a suited ace away, especially if you can muck if an ace flops.
vitaly

[Ed S.]

A-7 works in overly aggressive loose Wild games as well. A-x in super aggressive games where it is usually going for 2-3-4 bets pre flop, it is a monster hand. Some may not aggree with this for typical play but this is not a typical game.


Ed S.

[skp]

Well, I don't agree with that. You don't want to be playing with A7s in early position knowing that there is good chance that the pot will be capped. Also, the hand is much tougher to play (as compared to say 22) when the aggressiveness of the players extends to the flop and turn as well as preflop.

[elysium]

hi vk
the turn bet,.....hmmmmm. i was in a similar hand tonight and i bet against an MP raiser when the K hit, but as soon as i did, i realized that it was a mistake to do so. and we were heads up.

when the K hits, you must consider the possibility that the raiser has KK or KJs for two pair, whenever there is another paint card on board. it's the two pair thing here. now if it's AXX and then K, well your ace was already beaten so a bet out by you isn't awful and if your opponent didn't raise the flop when you bet, it's a fair assumption that he won't raise the turn either, although he may do just that. but generally, in that case, the K doesn't slow you down because you don't read him for AK anyway. but this is not true in the case of AQX and then K falling on the turn. now with only A pair, you should revert to check and call mode, especially in a multi-way. i learned the hard way tonight about this pretty basic concept. no, i've never read about it anywhere, but i'm glad you bring it up vk because it is a fairly common situation.

[Nottom]

At a table where 7 people are going to see the flop in a raised pot and 4 people will call you down with hands worse than Top Pair-CrapKicker, I think I'm gonna play A7s from pretty much any position.