Overlimping (thanks bottomset)

[benkath1]

After a sweat session with bottomset last week, we talked about my play. He pointed out that I overlimped a few times too many. I've never heard that term, but found it very valuable.

I had a good seat to the left of 3 semi loose passive players and to my left were 3 tighty's. Like vpip<20 guys. Overall the table wasn't that great. The hand I remember was 89s in MP, it went a little something like this:

Party Poker 1.00/2.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(10 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5.00 SB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+2 calls, Hero folds.

The thing he pointed out was that with the tight players behind me, I probably wouldn't get enough callers to make the hand playable. I needed a few more callers in front. It hadn't clicked at the time and I asked if he raised with that, and he said usually no.

What I've figured out about this thus far:
<ul type="square"> I get stuck in a small pot with a marginal drawing hand. [/list]
<ul type="square"> I have zero fold equity with calling stations in front. [/list]
<ul type="square"> Even if I hit one of my cards, I could be reverse dominated. [/list]

Now this is something I haven't seen discussed, but could also pertain to hands like T9s, KJo, Axs and others.

Discussion?

[shant]

Yeah he's absolutely right here. Also, with aggressive players behind you risk being raised and having to call another bet to see a flop.

As far as the other hands you asked about, I'd fold T9s, I'd raise KJo, and depending on how much they call/fold postflop, I'd raise Axs. Usually A7s and above, and fold the rest, but it can lower depending on how weak the UTG player is.

The only time I like overlimping weak players with qustionable preflop hands is when I'm on the button.

[k000k]

98s is ok multiway, but if you have 3 tighties on your left, you dont know that its gonna be multiway yet. 3-way isnt multiway enough for 98s imo. T9s, same thing.

Axs I probably limp with too much, that's a trap hand and I fall for it all the time. I limp with Axs at party .5/1 10h from pretty much any position, cuz odds are there'll be 5 to the flop. 6max games I'll raise it, thins the herd and makes A-hi stronger shorter handed.

[k000k]

Also, with aggressive players behind you risk being raised and having to call another bet to see a flop.

Another excellent point i forgot to mention... That's probably a better reason to fold than 'not multiway enough'.

[McNeese72]

Small pocket pairs to some extent, too.

Basic SSH stuff.

Later,
Doc

[McNeese72]

[ QUOTE ]
Axs I probably limp with too much, that's a trap hand and I fall for it all the time. I limp with Axs at party

[/ QUOTE ]

That's one of my leaks that I keep doing too much. Playing Axs in early position. I need to tighten that up especially at tight aggresive full ring tables. Not enough callers and too much of a chance to get raised behind me.

[Songwind]

This is something I'm working on. For me, I believe it has to do with the "chart." Now that I"m comfortable that I know the default recommendations, I am working on thinking about WHY I limp/raise/fold any given hand. Most of them are easy (I raise KK because I am a big favorite/fold T7o because it's trash) but the middle suited connectors and little offsuit broadway hands are food for thought.

[Wetdog]

[ QUOTE ]
... but the middle suited connectors and little offsuit broadway hands are food for thought.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's just a matter of steeling yourself to wait with those until LP, much like when you first threw away K4o when you realized that it's trouble. My personal demon is Axs.

[Songwind]

Forgot Axs and Kxs type hands in my list. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Buckmulligan]

all the hands you listed I'm usually still limping here minus the 98s.

[henkeee]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd raise KJo, and depending on how much they call/fold postflop, I'd raise Axs. Usually A7s and above, and fold the rest, but it can lower depending on how weak the UTG player is.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see the postflop benefits of raising marginal hands, but raising KJo and A7s in MP1 is something I don't feel comfortable doing (at least yet). When I see players raising hands like these, I start to wonder about their stats for these plays. Do you have a reasonable large sample size that such raises in "this" position are +EV (for you)? I assume you're a better postflop player than me, but at least I could try it eventually..

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd raise KJo, and depending on how much they call/fold postflop, I'd raise Axs. Usually A7s and above, and fold the rest, but it can lower depending on how weak the UTG player is.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see the postflop benefits of raising marginal hands, but raising KJo and A7s in MP1 is something I don't feel comfortable doing (at least yet). When I see players raising hands like these, I start to wonder about their stats for these plays. Do you have a reasonable large sample size that such raises in "this" position are +EV (for you)? I assume you're a better postflop player than me, but at least I could try it eventually..

[/ QUOTE ]
It depends on a few other factors as well. It depends on who is in the blinds and how they play, or how the players left behind me react to raises preflop. I'vee heard 1/2 plays like 3/6, with a lot of tight-aggressive play, and more blind stealing.

A lot of time if you have tight players behind you, and loose players in front, you can raise a lot of hands and isolate the passive/bad players and clear the good ones out of the pot. You would be surprised how often you can raise in these spots and take the pot down with a flop bet. I'd much rather raise these hands than limp behind with them.

As far as database stats go, I have nearly 1000 hands of A7s and KJo and I'm winning 0.18BB/100 with each of them.

[henkeee]

That's good! Not a marginal play then..

I would raise KJo rather than limping under those circumstances, but I've been folding it so far in MP1. I've been limping A7s behind a limper and raising/folding FI depending on position (and players).

Thank you!