AKs calls big raise and keeps getting called down?? [Archive]

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12-29-2005, 12:36 PM

10 minutes at table, no reads, and this hand comes up:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB :#A500AF(villain)/ (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

saw flop|saw showdown

BB :#A500AF(villain)/ ($25)
UTG ($15.75)
MP ($18.05)
Button ($49.20)
Hero ($24.40)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG calls $0.25, MP calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25, Hero (poster) raises to $1.4, BB :#A500AF(villain)/ raises to $4.25, UTG folds, MP folds, Button folds, Hero calls $3.

Flop: ($9.75) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $2, villain calls $2.

Turn: ($13.75) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $3, villain calls $3.

River: ($19.75) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $5, villain raises to $15, Hero calls $9.90 (All-In).

Final Pot: $49.65

Your comments on flop, turn and river please. if you would call the river, please state why. thanks from a struggler in the trenches

GrunchCan

12-29-2005, 12:42 PM

Horrible bets on the flop & turn. Why such a small bet? He's correct to call with a gutshot; you're making it difficult for your opponent to make a mistake.

Given your stack, you should either check-push or open-push the flop. I'd probably go about 75/25 check-push/open-push.

Given the way you played, you should definitely call the river. You're getting about 4:1. Easy call.

12-29-2005, 12:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Horrible bets on the flop & turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
My preflop raise is about 4 x bb + 1 bb per limper. Isn't that about right?
Yesterday i had the identical hand and was betting into pocket AA, so i was a bit gun shy here. Should i have been after the huge raise? What do you put him on??

poboy

12-29-2005, 12:57 PM

Make a PSB on the flop and get the rest in on the turn. The only reasonable hand your behind is AA, and if that's the case you'll just have to go broke. More likely this is a donk who can't get away from KK/QQ or you could even be looking at a split. If he's really bad this could even be AQ. JMO

tripp0807

12-29-2005, 01:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
10 minutes at table, no reads, and this hand comes up:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB :#A500AF(villain)/ (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

saw flop|saw showdown

BB :#A500AF(villain)/ ($25)
UTG ($15.75)
MP ($18.05)
Button ($49.20)
Hero ($24.40)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG calls $0.25, MP calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25, Hero (poster) raises to $1.4, BB :#A500AF(villain)/ raises to $4.25, UTG folds, MP folds, Button folds, Hero calls $3.

Flop: ($9.75) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $2, villain calls $2.

Turn: ($13.75) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $3, villain calls $3.

River: ($19.75) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $5, villain raises to $15, Hero calls $9.90 (All-In).

Final Pot: $49.65

Your comments on flop, turn and river please. if you would call the river, please state why. thanks from a struggler in the trenches

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Horrible bets on the flop & turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
My preflop raise is about 4 x bb + 1 bb per limper. Isn't that about right?
Yesterday i had the identical hand and was betting into pocket AA, so i was a bit gun shy here. Should i have been after the huge raise? What do you put him on??

[/ QUOTE ]

Grunch isn't criticizing your preflop bet. He's (correctly) saying that your weak ass $2 bet into an almost $10 pot sucked. BET THE POT, or 2/3 of it minimum if you're going to bet. If he's got 78, you're gift wrapping his draw.

You let him hit his kicker on the river by betting like a pussy. He had AT, no?

deaders

12-29-2005, 01:18 PM

What are you doing with those flop and turn bets?? Horrible is the only word. Like others have said make it pot sized or close to it on the flop.

Im going to take a wild stab and say that if you did that he wouldnt have outdrawn you with 10s?

12-29-2005, 01:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The only reasonable hand your behind is AA, and if that's the case you'll just have to go broke.

[/ QUOTE ]
This really is the guts of the issue here for me. do others feel the same way??? Is this good poker?? Does the preflop raise mean KK,QQ, JJ maybe?? I know no one has the answer, but am i a favorite to win this here given what we know??

12-29-2005, 01:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
10 minutes at table, no reads, and this hand comes up:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB :#A500AF(villain)/ (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

saw flop|saw showdown

BB :#A500AF(villain)/ ($25)
UTG ($15.75)
MP ($18.05)
Button ($49.20)
Hero ($24.40)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG calls $0.25, MP calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25, Hero (poster) raises to $1.4, BB :#A500AF(villain)/ raises to $4.25, UTG folds, MP folds, Button folds, Hero calls $3.

Flop: ($9.75) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $2, villain calls $2.

Turn: ($13.75) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $3, villain calls $3.

River: ($19.75) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $5, villain raises to $15, Hero calls $9.90 (All-In).

Final Pot: $49.65

Your comments on flop, turn and river please. if you would call the river, please state why. thanks from a struggler in the trenches

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Horrible bets on the flop & turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
My preflop raise is about 4 x bb + 1 bb per limper. Isn't that about right?
Yesterday i had the identical hand and was betting into pocket AA, so i was a bit gun shy here. Should i have been after the huge raise? What do you put him on??

[/ QUOTE ]

Grunch isn't criticizing your preflop bet. He's (correctly) saying that your weak ass $2 bet into an almost $10 pot sucked. BET THE POT, or 2/3 of it minimum if you're going to bet. If he's got 78, you're gift wrapping his draw.

You let him hit his kicker on the river by betting like a pussy. He had AT, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

The flop bet and the turn bet were both weak. No argument. I was leading weakly to see if he would come over the top of me in which case i might fold?? What the heck was he raising so much with?? Why isn't he betting into me now if his hand is so strong??
Lets assume i bet the flop for $8. He calls. Now what? (results of the hand soon.)

GrunchCan

12-29-2005, 01:39 PM

To be clear, your preflop raise was fine. I was commenting on flop & turn.

BB's preflop action is very strong. He does have something, but that something isn't limited to AA. Limiting BB's range to AA-JJ and possibly AK is reasonable. This range expands as BB gets better or worse than the average donk.

That said, once the flop comes you are in really great shape. The board is extremely dry. There are very few draws. Even if you limit BB's range to just AA or KK (not a reasonable range, this is just an illustration), you still have an equity edge.

If the pot is heads-up and you have an equity edge against an opponent willing to go to the felt, you should be getting it in the middle. This is what you have been waiting for. You look for through tickets in no-limit, and this could be one. Make no mistake: you will lose this pot sometimes. Perhaps as often as 35%-40% of the time. But over the long haul, you're winning it. If you go broke against AA, that's the cost of doing buisness. Get your chips in & count your Sklansky bucks.

teamdonkey

12-29-2005, 01:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
am i a favorite to win this here given what we know??

[/ QUOTE ]

you've given us no information about villain, so we can't really comment on his range. However with one ace in your hand and another on the board, AA is an unlikely holding.

Grunch, can you explain what possible reason you would want to open push this flop for? Given a normal villain's range, what hands can he have that this is a good line against?

OP, your hand is almost certainly good on the flop, and villain is almost certainly drawing thin. I don't mind a smallish flop bet here but yours is too small. Make it half pot instead. If he calls, against a lot of villains i'll check on a blank turn like this. Anything to get another bet out of an opponent that's most likely drawing to 2 or 3 outs.

12-29-2005, 01:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
To be clear, your preflop raise was fine. I was commenting on flop & turn.

BB's preflop action is very strong. He does have something, but that something isn't limited to AA. Limiting BB's range to AA-JJ and possibly AK is reasonable. This range expands as BB gets better or worse than the average donk.

That said, once the flop comes you are in really great shape. The board is extremely dry. There are very few draws. Even if you limit BB's range to just AA or KK (not a reasonable range, this is just an illustration), you still have an equity edge.

If the pot is heads-up and you have an equity edge against an opponent willing to go to the felt, you should be getting it in the middle. This is what you have been waiting for. You look for through tickets in no-limit, and this could be one. Make no mistake: you will lose this pot sometimes. Perhaps as often as 35%-40% of the time. But over the long haul, you're winning it. If you go broke against AA, that's the cost of doing buisness. Get your chips in & count your Sklansky bucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. This is exactly the line of thinking i was hoping to find here.

Results: he had AA.

GrunchCan

12-29-2005, 01:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Grunch, can you explain what possible reason you would want to open push this flop for?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold equity against AK, or to insure max value from KK. In both cases, I'd need very solid reads on the opponent. I't pretty unusual for me to have a good enough read on the opponent to select this line, and that's why I usualy check-push for value most of the time.