$55 Quick check 3: KJo on BB facing SB miniraise

[pottie]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (3 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t2660)
Button (t4150)
SB (t3190)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t600</font>, Hero ?

[Sykes]

Push. KJ is too good 3 handed with 9BB.

[Kristian]

Push, unless you have a specific reason to suspect trickiness.

[Sciolist]

Push - I hate min raisers.

[tigerite]

Depends on what you believe your fold equity to be against him.

If he calls even as much as a third of the time, you're going to have to pray his raising range is in the top 37-40% of hands, which is pretty wide.

Two responses on this thread 'I hate min-raisers' and 'KJ is too good 3 handed with 9bb' are totally missing the point, as usual.

[Sykes]

[ QUOTE ]
Depends on what you believe your fold equity to be against him.

If he calls even as much as a third of the time, you're going to have to pray his raising range is in the top 37-40% of hands, which is pretty wide.

Two responses on this thread 'I hate min-raisers' and 'KJ is too good 3 handed with 9bb' are totally missing the point, as usual.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you on drugs?

Are you saying you'd fold? Or that you'd call and play "some poker"?

Seriously, wtf. The default play here is to push.

[tigerite]

No I'm not on drugs, I just happened to do the ICM maths on this situation.

[ QUOTE ]
Two responses on this thread 'I hate min-raisers' and 'KJ is too good 3 handed with 9bb' are totally missing the point, as usual.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol... good to have you back tigerite.

seriously though, the key is how the bubble played and how ITM has gone so far. has he called any all-in pushes? what's his typical SB behavior been (completeing, pushing, min-raising, standard raising)?

basically, you make this push if you think he's going to respond weakly to aggression (i.e. fold). i actually don't think you want a call here.

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
basically, you make this push if you think he's going to respond weakly to aggression (i.e. fold). i actually don't think you want a call here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct! You don't want a call here - unless he is folding enough to make up for when he DOES call (because of the "dead" 900 chips). It might seem counter-intuitive, but if he called 100% of the time here, you'd have to be 50.3% favourite for it to be +$EV.. and KJo just doesn't stand up that well against a whole lot (thus the need for it to be a 39% range). The problem is, when he folds the bottom X% of that range, then the hands he still calls with, KJo holds up badly against those too, and so on.. it doesn't get below 37% range til he's folding 40%+ of the time.

That is what I was trying to get at, but hey, ridicule is fine too.

[Sykes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
basically, you make this push if you think he's going to respond weakly to aggression (i.e. fold). i actually don't think you want a call here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct! You don't want a call here - unless he is folding enough to make up for when he DOES call (because of the "dead" 900 chips). It might seem counter-intuitive, but if he called 100% of the time here, you'd have to be 50.3% favourite for it to be +$EV.. and KJo just doesn't stand up that well against a whole lot (thus the need for it to be a 39% range). The problem is, when he folds the bottom X% of that range, then the hands he still calls with, KJo holds up badly against those too, and so on.. it doesn't get below 37% range til he's folding 40%+ of the time.

That is what I was trying to get at, but hey, ridicule is fine too.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you put SB min-raise/call-a-push range at?

22+? A9+? KJ+?

We're 37/63 against that range.

So, all the matters is the number of times SB folds.

You're telling me that it's correct to fold KJ w/9BB ITM to a min-raise?

So what do you do here, tigerite?

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
So what do you do here, tigerite?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on my image and my read on the opponent. If my image is good and I think my fold equity is good (because my opponent will need to be 41% favourite to call any push I make, as well - another factor here) then I would push, or if I feel that the SB's min raise might as well be any two cards, then I'd also push.

It's just not a push you can make without a read or some kind of idea on the other's impression of you. Certainly not an 'insta push'. It would depend on the above factors for me.

[RobGW]

Lets ignore your little argument for the time being. Are you saying you'll fold KJ here?

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]

What do you put SB min-raise/call-a-push range at?

22+? A9+? KJ+?

We're 37/63 against that range.

So, all the matters is the number of times SB folds.

You're telling me that it's correct to fold KJ w/9BB ITM to a min-raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well that's the question isn't it - which is why I'd want a read on the guy, and to have some idea on his read on me to make the push.

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
Lets ignore your little argument for the time being. Are you saying you'll fold KJ here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes. It depends! As I've explained.

[ QUOTE ]
You're telling me that it's correct to fold KJ w/9BB ITM to a min-raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm yeah, that was my first thought when I seen the hand.

[tigerite]

Well, personally, I always (without fail) have some read on the SB by this point and some idea of my table image, and I play KJo here accordingly. There isn't a black and white answer.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you put SB min-raise/call-a-push range at?

22+? A9+? KJ+?

We're 37/63 against that range.

So, all the matters is the number of times SB folds.

You're telling me that it's correct to fold KJ w/9BB ITM to a min-raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

IT DEPENDS.

In order to put the SB on a range of hands, you have to have witnessed his behavior up to this point. How can tigerite answer a question like that in a vacuum. Against some opponents, I'd push instantly. Against others, I'd call and see a flop. I can't imagine that there would be opponents so tight that I would fold this ITM, but who knows...

Well, I just read tigerite's responses, and as usual, he is correct. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[RobGW]

Sometimes your posts are so math oriented without enough explaination that I (we) can't follow them. Anyways, the way I see it, pushing and calling are the two best options. I'd never fold this. I guess I'd decide between pushing and calling based on the SB actions thus far and my image. I mean, hero is getting pretty good odds to call here. But if SB is constantly raising my BB then its time to send a little message. If this is the first time he's stolen in a while I'd flat call and see a flop. And how does he play post flop? Can we steal it post flop if he checks or does he play tricky? And whats with the min raise? Is that something new or is this how he always steals? And how easy is it to steal the money back? There is a lot to consider here and ICM can only take it so far.

[jgunnip]

When i first read this hand I was thinking that I'm folding most of the time. Why? Because a lot of times I know I can, even with the short stack, find better situatons where I'm first in and not dealign with somebody that has already shown some interest. Like always reads are everything. For some players this play is KK+, others it could be a steal that is ready to fold to any attention, and other players will min-raise in an attempt to steal but then say '[censored] it' when you push and call anyway. No way is this an insta-push.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Well, I just read tigerite's responses, and as usual, he is correct. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

i have to apologize to tigerite. judging by his name I thought he was a she. sorry.

[tigerite]

LOL.. it's not a name from the jewel, it's from the football (soccer to most of you US lot I guess) team I support.. "The Tigers".

[ QUOTE ]
LOL.. it's not a name from the jewel, it's from the football (soccer to most of you US lot I guess) team I support.. "The Tigers".

[/ QUOTE ]

OMG, tigerite's a brit!?

[tigerite]

Of course I'm a bloody brit! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
LOL.. it's not a name from the jewel, it's from the football (soccer to most of you US lot I guess) team I support.. "The Tigers".

[/ QUOTE ]

again, my apologies

[Snarf]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, personally, I always (without fail) have some read on the SB by this point and some idea of my table image, and I play KJo here accordingly. There isn't a black and white answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wheres that Jukel dude? Did he read this thread?

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I think yours and 45suited posts are great...I hadn't realized consiously the points you discussed - but I realized that I do go through the same process in this spot...

Incidentally Tigerite (or 45suited)... how bad is cold-calling here and then 'playing some poker' post-flop?

a) You're ITM already
b) You're getting 4:1 on your money
c) Generally - you have to figure you have 2 live ones
d) You have position and may be able to buy it post-flop (since - as we already established - we now have a read on the SB)

[tigerite]

Not bad at all, I'd certainly want to call rather than fold the vast majority of the time I would even consider folding.

[z32fanatic]

I think I would probably call here barring the villain is a total donk and has been minraising a ton. This is because:
a) I don't think he's folding to the all in raise.
b) I don't think we're ahead of him right now.
c) We're kinda short and KJ is a pretty good hand 3 way.
d) If I flop a pair it will probably be top pair and he'll probably bet into me, allowing me to basically double up everytime I flop a pair. I would probably use position to my advantage here.

Repushing isnt a great play I think, I would fold before I pushed against a normal player. I think I call here 75%, fold 25%.