traffic ticket, need advice, improper use of headlights

Hello,

I just recieved my first ticket this evening, so I figured I might as well try and do some research online to look at my options and possible chances of getting the ticket erased. (might as well try right?)

SCENARIO
I was driving a 1999 chevy malibu in fine condition with all working and functioning parts. time is 1030 pm. The violation occured on a residential/rural area(houeses on one side, farm land on the other. I pull up to the end of one street, with no one in sight. There is a stop sign. This is a T intersection i arrive at. At the left side of the T intersection is a cop waiting to nail people who blow the stop sign, becuase if you turn right u will get to a major road (basically everyone turns right at this T intersection., and most roll through the stop sign)

I see the cop there (i know the area)and I come to a complete stop, stay within the speed limit.
After I turn adn drive maybe 200ft there is an oncoming car, in the other lane.(one lane road each direction separated by double yellow) I flash my brights twice at the car. About a half mile later the cop pulls me over.

notes:
- please also read diagram and actual convo listed below
-yes i was guilty i flashed the driver to and only to warn him of the cop,
- is this wrong or illegal?
-can he prove there was no deer?
- can he prove if i tell the judge i was checking my lights because i had a prob with my idiot lights?
- what would be your course of action?
- should i just pay the 45 and take a ticket on my record, its not the money but the fact i got a ticket for flashing my brights and doing nothing more
- i can see how exposing where the cop is hiding will piss him off, i wont do it again, is there any way you see i can get out of the ticket?
-the initail road is 35mph and the second road is 25mph the 25 mph does NOT have houses directly on it, just neighborhoods branching off, the road is wide and no reason to be 25mph

Actual conversation: (not exact words but very accurate summary)
cop: (knocks on window)
me: (hands him items ready prepared)
cop: is there a problem with your headlights?
me: no, sir, i dont beleive so.
cop: i pulled you over becuase you were flashing your brights at other dirvers to signal them of where we were.
me: i was flashing my lights not at the dirver but becuase there was a deer in the farm next to the road
cop: do you have any prior tickets?
me: no sir, I have zero
cop: ok wait here please

i wait he comes back hands me ticket says i am recieveing it for "improper use of headlights, 39: 3-60

diagram:
farm land l cop wiating
famr land l
----------l road initally on(-), and turn right onto (l)
farm land l
farm land l
farm land l flash other driver
farm land l
farm land l
farm land l
farm land l
farm land l get pulled over

left out ticket was recieved in jersey

[MrMon]

Plead the 1st Ammendment.

[whiskeytown]

contest it - make the [censored] get off his fat donut ass and come into court -

RB

[nothumb]

This is not a First Ammendment issue, at least where I grew up they call it obstruction of justice which is not a protected form of free speech. What you did was really stupid, what do you expect the cop to do when you warn people where he is? Fight it if you want but they are very unlikely to throw it out. This type of violation is not looked kindly upon by magistrates and the like.

NT

[Alobar]

why would you flash a car within site of the cop? thats just dumb.

Id prolly contest it I guess, cant hurt to try

Yeah, that was pretty stupid in plain site of the cop. But just go ahead and say you saw a deer, I suppose.

yes, obv it was stupid and dumb and just utterly brainless in retrospect. At the time i thought it might be a kind thing to do for the other driver, as its late, no cars are on the road, and he was def going over 25.

Yes i can also see how obviously the cop will get upset, but now that ive done it is there anything i can do to get out of it?
to get a ticket for that is just a bunch of crap for not actually for not speeding or blowing the stop sign is just crap

[emonrad87]

That sucks. I almost got pulled over this afternoon going like 25 mph over the limit on a highway. But i saw him just in time and slammed on my brakes (which was definately more dangerous than me going the higher speed). He actually shook his head at me (he was on a motorcycle) as I went by him, but he couldn't do anything cuz the radar gun showed me below the speed limit /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[MrMon]

[ QUOTE ]
This is not a First Ammendment issue, at least where I grew up they call it obstruction of justice which is not a protected form of free speech. What you did was really stupid, what do you expect the cop to do when you warn people where he is? Fight it if you want but they are very unlikely to throw it out. This type of violation is not looked kindly upon by magistrates and the like.

NT

[/ QUOTE ]

Interestingly enough, this (http://www.judiciary.state.nj.us/charges/jury/hinder1.htm) website by the state of New Jersey on jury instructions for HINDERING APPREHENSION OR PROSECUTION contains the following: [ QUOTE ]
(4) he warned (other) of impending or imminent discovery or apprehension. (Note: this does not apply to a warning given in connection with an effort to bring another into compliance with law, such as a fellow motorist warning speeders to slowdown for a speed trap, or a lawyer advising a client to discontinue illegal activities.)


[/ QUOTE ]

So, according to the state of New Jersey, warning others to bring themselves into complaince with the law is NOT a prosecutable offense.

[Lloyd]

Bottom line, you violated that section of the NJ code and you don't have a valid excuse. There's no exception in the law the way it's written. You were within 500 feet of an oncoming vehicle and put your high beams on. Guilty. About all you can do is challenge it, hope he doesn't show up, and if he does say that you put them on very briefly because you thought you saw something in the road. Basically, you're guilty but if it truly was only for a very brief moment maybe you'll get a nice judge.

[kyro]

To be perfectly honest, I had no idea this was illegal. This definitely wasn't covered in my Driver's Ed Class. Glad I know now though.

[kurosh]

please... i need htis song. th elrycsi go like "i took a look around my life and without you i ain't got nothing" or something close to that. the only thing i remember exactly is ain't. it is a guitar type song. please help kurosh. he will be eternally gratefuul

[StacysMom]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is not a First Ammendment issue, at least where I grew up they call it obstruction of justice which is not a protected form of free speech. What you did was really stupid, what do you expect the cop to do when you warn people where he is? Fight it if you want but they are very unlikely to throw it out. This type of violation is not looked kindly upon by magistrates and the like.

NT

[/ QUOTE ]

Interestingly enough, this (http://www.judiciary.state.nj.us/charges/jury/hinder1.htm) website by the state of New Jersey on jury instructions for HINDERING APPREHENSION OR PROSECUTION contains the following: [ QUOTE ]
(4) he warned (other) of impending or imminent discovery or apprehension. (Note: this does not apply to a warning given in connection with an effort to bring another into compliance with law, such as a fellow motorist warning speeders to slowdown for a speed trap, or a lawyer advising a client to discontinue illegal activities.)


[/ QUOTE ]

So, according to the state of New Jersey, warning others to bring themselves into complaince with the law is NOT a prosecutable offense.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isnt what he is charged with.

[StacysMom]

[ QUOTE ]
why would you flash a car within site of the cop? thats just dumb.

Id prolly contest it I guess, cant hurt to try

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? F the PoPo. Giving out petty fines is such a waste of resources. Fight it!

[TheBlueMonster]

[ QUOTE ]
About all you can do is challenge it, hope he doesn't show up, and if he does say that you put them on very briefly because you thought you saw something in the road. Basically, you're guilty but if it truly was only for a very brief moment maybe you'll get a nice judge.

[/ QUOTE ]
and chances are even in NJ a judge will be lenient. My father's a lawyer and the impression I get form him is that judges tend not to care about the little BS tickets. Especially with extenuating circumstances (in your case the phantom deer).

To all those recommending to contest it and hope the cop doesn't show up...Most departments these days schedule specific court days for their officers in advance and the officer has this schedule with him/her when they write a ticket. On those days the cop does nothing BUT court appearances, so, the chances the cop not showing are slim to none.

Contesting tickets is fine, but hoping the cop won't show up is NOT your best defense.

[Lloyd]

True. And not showing up doesn't look too good for the cop. But sometimes they don't. I'm not sure where you work but in California the date assigned on the citation is only for the arraignment. There's little control over when the trial date will be other than to ask for a change if it conflicts with a vacation schedule or the like. Not sure how Jersey operates.

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
judges tend not to care about the little BS tickets.

[/ QUOTE ]
In California, traffic cases are heard by traffic commissioners so pretty much everything they hear could fall under your definition of a "little BS ticket". In this instance, the violation itself could certainly be dangerous. I'm sure we've all been driving down the street and have been temporarily blinded by some idiot with his high beams on. The only way this is different is that they were presumably on for only a very short period of time (to see if that was actually a "deer" in the road). So perhaps a judge will see that while there was a violation the OP was trying to ensure the safety of all by avoiding what might have been a huge beast in the road.

[mason55]

I am too lazy to do the research right now, but there were a few different cases like this in a few areas that I remember hearing about in the past few years. Do some research because all the cases I heard about were thrown out.

[d10]

I don't have any experience with tickets in NJ. I do have lots of experience with tickets in other states, enough to know that what works in one state has nothing to do with what works in another state. So any advice from anyone other than someone who claims to know NJ traffic laws very well should only hope to point you in the right direction.

One thing that I have noticed that changes very little from state to state is that when people fight their own traffic tickets, they aren't thrown out unless there is clear evidence that the ticket should never have been written in the first place. That's not the case here. Also these judges listen to maybe 100 cases each day, they won't have a lot of patience. Unless it's a lawyer speaking or you're confident that you know courtroom procedures at least as well as the judge, any attempt to put up a defense beyond "I'm sorry, I have no priors, please reduce the fines/points/whatever" will not be effective. Since you're asking OOT for advice, I'm going to assume you don't fall into either one of those categories. I'm 95% sure that if you don't get a lawyer, this ticket will stand. Whether it's worth the cost of that is up to you.

[radek2166]

No worries. Goto court. use same story burden of proff on the cop

[mrkilla]

ahhh Troopers gotta love NJ

Well the fines like 50 bucks if you want to be a dick and tell them you were mistaken and saw a Pig in the road and wanted to warn everyone...

[ QUOTE ]
This is not a First Ammendment issue, at least where I grew up they call it obstruction of justice which is not a protected form of free speech. What you did was really stupid, what do you expect the cop to do when you warn people where he is? Fight it if you want but they are very unlikely to throw it out. This type of violation is not looked kindly upon by magistrates and the like.

NT

[/ QUOTE ]


By your logic, me telling a drug dealer not to deal drugs because the cops will nab him, is obstruction of justice. I would fight this [censored] ticket.

[samjjones]

Its certainly a BS ticket, but I think you'll do better by just paying the fine and trying to forget about it. Do you really want to get worked up over trying to contest this? This won't result in any points or insurance surcharge, right?

[vexvelour]

You're too nice. Next time, just let the other drivers get their asses busted.

Besides, it's fun to watch others get pulled over.

PS- The only reason you should be flashing your brights is if you're on a dark road and REALLY can't see [censored], or if it's night and someone in oncoming traffic doesn't have their lights on, to signal that they need to turn them on.

[correia]

How do you live in Jersey and not have a PBA/FOP card?

[Macdaddy Warsaw]

[ QUOTE ]
No worries. Goto court. use same story burden of proff on the cop

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I would be thinking. Just go to court, say, "I didn't do that". Let the cop give proof that you did. Is there some kind of decree that says a cop's word is better than yours?

EDIT: I think it's important here to make sure you say you didn't even flash your headlights. Don't say, I flashed them because...(other excuse). Just say you didn't flash them. Same as when you're speeding and get pulled over, never ever admit to doing anything over the speed limit.

[MrMon]

This pretty much proves that a lot of cops are jerks.

Ask-A-Cop (http://forums.realpolice.net/showthread.php?t=22437&highlight=flashing+headligh ts)

One cop did have the point that there's not a darn thing they can do about you flashing headlights in the daytime.

Bottom line is, if it's you vs. the cop, the cop will win because traffic court is there to collect fines, especially in small towns. Yes it's crooked, but what are you going to do? If you can get a lawyer who is a friend or relative to fight it for free, then you might have a chance because odds are, the cops violated some procedure and traffic court judges hardly want to be seen as granting leeway to cops on procedure if they have any hopes of moving up to something like criminal court. (But don't count on even that, chances are, if they're in traffic court it's not because they're legal geniuses.)

It's like as $44 fine, is it really worth all the effort to fight it, even if you know it's unjust?

[odellthurman]

I am a lawyer, and most of the legal advice given in this forum sucks. D10's advice is the best in this thread. Just because you have had a ticket or even if you are a lawyer, advice about how to handle a ticket is going to be jurisdiction-specific. I'm a lawyer in GA, so I can only speculate what might happen in NJ traffic court. Also, traffic courts' handling of tickets may likely vary from court to court, even within a jurisdiction.

Bottom line - When you have a legal problem, your best course of action is going to be to hire a lawyer with a good reputation and with experience handling similar situations. If you can't do that for financial or other reasons, good luck.

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
I just recieved my first ticket this evening, so I figured I might as well try and do some research online to look at my options and possible chances of getting the ticket erased.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will give my non-legal-experience & non-law-enforcement-experience opinion on the matter, which may or may not be correct, but will sure sound pretty smart.

[ QUOTE ]
I see the cop there

[/ QUOTE ]

Would it have been IMPOSSIBLE for you to NOT know the cop was there? This is important. Read ahead.

[ QUOTE ]
I flash my brights twice at the car.

[/ QUOTE ]

You probably know this already, but don't do this again - at least not at night. During the day time if there is only one cop, he has no way of knowing that you warned someone. At night it's blatantly obvious.

[ QUOTE ]
-yes i was guilty i flashed the driver to and only to warn him of the cop,
- is this wrong or illegal?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong? No... only if the other driver was doing something reckless like driving 80mph in a residential area... or if he was some punk kid driving his rice rocket.

Illegal? Probably. A case could be made for obstruction of justice; however, if the cop didn't know for a FACT that the other driver was breaking the law, then he can't say you were "obstructing justice" since no crime had yet been committed.

Think of it this way.

Friend: "I'm going to kill my wife for cheating on me."
You: "Hey, don't kill your wife. Her lover is a cop and he's hiding in the closet."
Friend: "Ok. Good idea."
Cop: "You have obstructed justice by warning your friend! You are going to jail!"

It's crap. Now if the cop had confirmed that this person was speeding or ran a stop sign and you helped him evade the police, that's a different story.

[ QUOTE ]
-can he prove there was no deer?

[/ QUOTE ]

No he can't, which is why I mentioned before that it is important for you to know if it were possible for you not to have seen the cop.

If the cop can say that it was IMPOSSIBLE for you not to have seen him, then he can say that it was more likely that you were warning the other driver. If you can get the judge or jury (I believe it is your right to get a trial by jury. Whether that is to your advantage or not is unknown to me) to believe that you DIDN'T know the cop was there, then the cop CANNOT claim you were trying to warn the driver.

"Warn him of what? I didn't even know the cop was there!"

[ QUOTE ]
- can he prove if i tell the judge i was checking my lights because i had a prob with my idiot lights?

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't tell the judge that. You already told the cop your lights were fine.

[ QUOTE ]
the road is wide and no reason to be 25mph

[/ QUOTE ]

Irrelevant. =)

[ QUOTE ]
i was flashing my lights not at the dirver but becuase there was a deer in the farm next to the road

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are going to fight the ticket, then this sounds to me like your best defense. Just make sure that there is a real possibility that there could be a deer to warn someone about.

Summary:
- Use warning of deer defense. Argue that you did not know cop was there, and therefore could not have been warning anybody about him.
- Find out if requesting trial by jury would be to your advantage. If I were on your jury and you looked respectable, I would vote not guilty even if you admitted to doing it.

Any lawyers out there? Is my advice sound?

Should I become a lawyer? =)

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
That sucks. I almost got pulled over this afternoon going like 25 mph over the limit on a highway. But i saw him just in time and slammed on my brakes (which was definately more dangerous than me going the higher speed). He actually shook his head at me (he was on a motorcycle) as I went by him, but he couldn't do anything cuz the radar gun showed me below the speed limit /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

trust me, it had nothing to do with what his radar gun said, his radar had you speeding, he simply didnt pull you over because he either had something better to do, or because he figured he scared you enough that youll drive under for a while, and hed rather pull someone over who doesnt even bother to slow down when they see him.

[ QUOTE ]
Just because you have had a ticket or even if you are a lawyer, advice about how to handle a ticket is going to be jurisdiction-specific.

[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't agree more, I've gotten plenty of tickets in NY and know how to handle those but I think NJ has some unique laws regarding traffic violations. My rule of thumb, <u>always</u> fight a traffic ticket, especially your first. Odds are good that it will get reduced and cost you less and/or not put points on your license. They are banking on you not going through the trouble of fighting it (I even told a cop that once while he was giving me a ticket since I was about 5 hours away from home and I figured he knew there would be little chance I would fight it, he didn't like that attitude, but I still fought it and got it way reduced...score).

Plus, this looks like it was something that annoyed the cop so he pulled you over to make a point. Maybe you were wrong, but then again, so it jay-walking. This seems to be a minor infraction, and the cop made a point of it so you should make a point to bog-down the legal system a little more and go through the motions. Enjoy, and good luck!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No worries. Goto court. use same story burden of proff on the cop

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I would be thinking. Just go to court, say, "I didn't do that". Let the cop give proof that you did. Is there some kind of decree that says a cop's word is better than yours?

EDIT: I think it's important here to make sure you say you didn't even flash your headlights. Don't say, I flashed them because...(other excuse). Just say you didn't flash them. Same as when you're speeding and get pulled over, never ever admit to doing anything over the speed limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

More and more police departments are using video and audio these days. My brother is cop, and he is miked, so the entire conversation is on tape. If he acknowledged to the cop that he flashed his lights to warn of a deer (and it's on tape), your idea won't work at all.

I didn't read your whole post, but I'm pretty sure they do not go to trial over a moving violation that does not involve any injury. It would be pretty silly to even try, he's not in any danger of losing his license or facing civil damages of any sort.

Also, saying you did not know the cop was there would probably go over poorly. How did you see a deer in the woods but not see a cop car parked near a stop sign? I get your point, but probably would go a different route.

[tonypaladino]

Why is everyone keep talking about obstruction of justice? The ticket was for improper use of headlights.

There's a precedent for this very situation. I have no idea if it will apply to your location, but an appeals court has ruled that you are allowed to communicate with other drivers for this purpose. I didn't search very hard, but here's a start:
http://www.tennessean.com/local/archives/03/10/41877517.shtml

[Alobar]

alos, are you prepared to lie under oath?

[Lloyd]

While this was a good find, it's not relevant. The OP was cited for improper use of headlights, not warning others of police presence. Plus, it's a different jurisdiction.

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
Just go to court, say, "I didn't do that". Let the cop give proof that you did. Is there some kind of decree that says a cop's word is better than yours?

EDIT: I think it's important here to make sure you say you didn't even flash your headlights. Don't say, I flashed them because...(other excuse). Just say you didn't flash them. Same as when you're speeding and get pulled over, never ever admit to doing anything over the speed limit.

[/ QUOTE ]
A judge will take the word of a cop over the defendant any day of the week. Defendants rarely admit their guilt. All the cop needs to do is say what he saw and that's enough proof. And the last thing you want to do is lie about what you told the cop. As soon as you admit what you did to him it will (or at least should) be recorded in his notes that will come out at trial. He'll say something like "When I asked the defendant why he flashed his high beams you said 'I thought I saw a deer'". The only point that can be made is that the very brief use of the headlights because of the possible deer in the road posed less of a risk then any possibility that they obstructed the other driver's view. So in the "interest of justice" the violation should be dismissed.

I wasn't referring to obstruction of justice, I was ignoring that part since I figured it was irrelevant. I was just trying to say it's a simple traffic infraction, go to court, plead 'not guilty' and get it reduced for whatever reason OP can come up with. The best excuse, it was OP first infraction.

[kipin]

Apparently flashing your lights is against the law in many states but if you turn your lights off and on, this is legal. You can then plead ignorance. (Look it up, I have only heard of this, never researched it)

The More You Know.

[HopeydaFish]

[ QUOTE ]
Apparently flashing your lights is against the law in many states but if you turn your lights off and on, this is legal. You can then plead ignorance. (Look it up, I have only heard of this, never researched it)

The More You Know.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ignorance of the law is not a valid defence. However, it can be seen as a mitigating factor and lessen the penalty.

[MrMon]

Warning another driver of a potentially hazardous situation is a legitimate defense, even if you were violating the law. Don't know how much proof it would require, but the statement the cop made about the reason you were pulled over would show it was a retalitory move, not because you were causing an actual hazardous situation. I believe the law is intended for those who run with their brights on, not those who flash them. Turning off your lights would seem to be much more hazardous.

If you can get the cop on the stand, ask him how he would advise you warn another driver of a potentially hazardous situation. And IIRC, don't cops routinely flash their lights at you when they want you to pull over and it's not clear who they're after?

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
Apparently flashing your lights is against the law in many states but if you turn your lights off and on, this is legal. You can then plead ignorance. (Look it up, I have only heard of this, never researched it)

The More You Know.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you are suggesting that turning off your lights during the evening hours, even if for just a moment, is legal you are certainly mistaken in California. You are required to have them on at all times during evening hours. There is no allowance for even briefly turning them off. Of course, it would be an incredibly petty ticket but so is writing someone for briefly flashing their brights.

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
Warning another driver of a potentially hazardous situation is a legitimate defense, even if you were violating the law. Don't know how much proof it would require, but the statement the cop made about the reason you were pulled over would show it was a retalitory move, not because you were causing an actual hazardous situation. I believe the law is intended for those who run with their brights on, not those who flash them. Turning off your lights would seem to be much more hazardous.

If you can get the cop on the stand, ask him how he would advise you warn another driver of a potentially hazardous situation. And IIRC, don't cops routinely flash their lights at you when they want you to pull over and it's not clear who they're after?

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, if you get the cop on the stand, be sure to ask him what you told him regarding the deer or whatever.

I would file a motion of discovery to get the video tape of the stop.