A less clear hand to comment on for the esteemed panel

[0 doubt]

I was asked to find a less clear hand. How about this one? I feel like I should have raised the flop or even preflop?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, CO calls, BB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, CO calls, BB folds, Hero calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero folds, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

[silkyslim]

Gotta raise preflop or fold. I guess you are hoping to spike an A or J. i could find a fold on the turn since the board 2 flushed and you dont have the A or J of /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. you have basically no clean outs. i would most like to see the J /images/graemlins/heart.gifor /images/graemlins/spade.gif on the river, but the pot isnt big enough

[0 doubt]

The inside straight draw doesn't help out my odds enough?

I raise this preflop or I let it go. I don't want a multiway pot with AJo. Call on the flop is fine but I let it go on the turn. The pot isn't big enough and some of my outs may be dirty. A Jack on the river also gives QJ or any 8 a straight. So even if we do make our gutshot we may be beaten.. Nah, to dangerous, I fold the turn since the pot is to small for me wanting to take any risks.

[0 doubt]

THAT is a place where I'm losing some money then. Good stuff, makes sense. thanks. I do seem to find myself in vague situations (as I see them) because of limping like that from time to time.

PREFLOP: What to with AJo UTG in a ten handed game has been debated for a long time, probably becuz it really doesnt matter whether you raise/call/or fold this hand. However you are currently in a 8 handed situation. In this spot I think raising is the best play.

FLOP: You should fold, the pot is small. On this board your overcard outs are probably no good and all you have is a one gard gutshot that isnt to the nuts and theres a decent chance you will have to split if you hit.

Lets try to figure out your pure outs. I would give your ace outs 1.5 pure outs since, many times you will hit this hand and still lose. I would give your jack outs .5 pure outs since if this card hits the turn, you should be check-folding more than betting or check-calling. I would assign your gutshot outs to 2 pure outs. Given that 3 other opponents are still in this hand there is a higher chance than normal that you will have to split this pot if you hit, and even if you hit your hand on the turn you can still be up against a higher straight or you can still get outdrawn if a jack falls on the river. So you you have a total of 4 pure outs, and your getting 8.5-1 pot odds to call. Since you need approx 11-1 to call you should fold. But what about implied odds?? Well I would estimate your implied odds to be zero since many of the hands you hit can cost you just as much money as you make, and if you hit your straight you dont stand to make many additional bets from 2nd best hands since this board will look extremely scary for anyone who doesnt have a straight.

TURN: Despite everything I said about your flop play, calling the flop wouldnt be terrible, and it would only be a small mistake at best, and who knows maybe its a profitable call cuz there are enough dumb players to pay you off with one pair if you hit your gutshot on the turn.
However, calling the turn would be terrible IMO. Now your odds are considerably worse, you are only getting 6.75-1 instead of 8.5-1 and now, whatever implied odds you think you might have are also severly diminished since you only have one street left to make any money if you do hit your hand. You should fold.

[ QUOTE ]
Gotta raise preflop or fold. I guess you are hoping to spike an A or J. i could find a fold on the turn since the board 2 flushed and you dont have the A or J of /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. you have basically no clean outs. i would most like to see the J /images/graemlins/heart.gifor /images/graemlins/spade.gif on the river, but the pot isnt big enough

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree with your raise/fold line with AJo here. Like you, I also believe raising is the best play here, but calling is much better than folding IMO. The hero has too strong of a hand in this 8 handed situation to consider folding IMO.

[matt hooley]

if anyone claims to either be raising or folding preflop "here" then they are not giving you enough information because game specifics are vital to preflop play.

but seriously, folding AJo UTG is just throwing away equity. In a loose game raising would also be less profitable, but even in a tight game I don't like raising from EP because you'll just blow away hands that you want limping behind you.

edit, this is replying to OP

[TripleH68]

AJo is marginally +EV UTG.

I'd like to know why you did not raise preflop. I am not saying that you should have necessarily. Some things are important though like

1) How the table will react to your raise UTG?
2) How do the button and blinds play?
3) Are there any chronic cold-callers to your immediate left?

With no other information I think raising preflop is slightly better than calling is slightly better than folding, but this preflop call is not one to sweat over.

On the flop getting 8.5:1 almost closing the action I would peel here also, then fold the turn.

[ackid]

Raising the pot with a/j UTG is not a good play at the 1/2 level IMO.

Once you miss the flop I like a check/fold.

[hobbsmann]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising the pot with a/j UTG is not a good play at the 1/2 level IMO.

Once you miss the flop I like a check/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
damnit why the [censored] are so many of you guys soooooooo tight/weak? Raise preflop everytime. Flop play is fine. Fold the turn you don't have odds to continue. Next hand.

[bobhalford]

Depending on the table, I fold AJo UTG. I just hate playing this hand oop. I could never imagine just calling with it though. That's definitely a bad play. I don't think it's a "raise every time" hand UTG just because it's a potential trouble maker in this position. I raise it about half the time and hope for the best.

Don't know if I qualify as esteemed, but here we go...

*grunching*

PREFLOP: raise or fold...esp. since it's unsuited and not a drawing hand.

Edit: suppose you could call up front with AJo, but I'd be less than thrilled to let five players in behind me for one bet. If that happens, you need to hit a pair. Depending on what's been going on, I can sometimes pull off the "raise PF, bet flop, bet turn" unimproved and get players to fold, which is one reason I prefer raising here.

FLOP: maybe I can find a call here...but your gutshot is worthless against QJ. I don't like playing overcards when I don't flop much (I'm notorious for trying to push through unimproved AK...it's a big leak of mine.)

TURN: get out. Small pot...whatever outs you had just got worse with the two-flush.

RIVER: good fold.

ScottieK

[MrEngenic]

I prefer a preflop raise but there is nothing wrong with calling either.
I like a turn fold but I don't think it's a big mistake to call either.

[matt hooley]

[ QUOTE ]
I could never imagine just calling with it though. That's definitely a bad play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why don't you try cracking open SSH and taking a look at the preflop hand recomendations. And the same to anyone who would call such a preflop play "weak-tight".

I raise this preflop. Hopefully that limits the field and the hand plays differently from there. Maybe your continuation bet on the flop with take it down.

BBB

[hobbsmann]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I could never imagine just calling with it though. That's definitely a bad play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why don't you try cracking open SSH and taking a look at the preflop hand recomendations. And the same to anyone who would call such a preflop play "weak-tight".

[/ QUOTE ]
1st off the SSHE recommendations are just that recommendations. As you play more hands you learn when and why certain hands should be raised. Personally through playing in tighter and more aggro games then those described in SSHE I have changed my preflop play that my ranges no longer mirror, although still similar, the recommendations in the book.

If played a decent number of hands from 1/2 to 20/40 on party in the last year and have yet to find a table that I thought it correct to do anything but raise AJo UTG.

[Eeegah]

I raise preflop with this UTG 100% of the time, and the hand plays completely different.

[kiemo]

OH BOY ANOTHER AJo UTG RAISE/CALL DEBATE! YEAH!!!!!!

This hand is completely boring and it gets posted 5 times every week
Fold preflop/flop/turn/river.
Call preflop/flop/turn/river
Raise preflop/flop/turn/river

Circle whichever action you want for any street, you will probably never get two seperate people to agree on it.

[Eeegah]

[ QUOTE ]
you will probably never get two seperate people to agree on it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Which is why we have these debates.

[shant]

The best arguement for raising AJo or KQo or 99 or any other hand the weak/tighties are afraid of raising UTG is because raising is fun.

[ QUOTE ]
I raise preflop with this UTG 100% of the time, and the hand plays completely different.

[/ QUOTE ]


What Eeegah says.


Use the filter in PT:

Select the hand

Positions Off the Button
Between 6 AND 7 -- or choose Exactly 7 for UG only

Bind Status
Not a blind (if the game is shorthanded 6 or 7 OTB can put you in one of the blinds)

Pre-flop Raise
Raised first in

I am +EV for for both suited and unsuited. More so for suited though. Granted, I only have 8 hands that meet this criteria in this particular data base which has 9K of my hands.

[Augster]

Grunch.

Either Raise or fold preflop. I raise and hope to fold out AQos and tiny pocket pairs. It plays differently then.

I most likely bail on the turn as our ace-outs may be good, I doubt our J outs are, and we have the gutshot which is most likely good. Small pot.

Different hand when raised pre-flop.