$22: push any two from SB here?

SNGPT seems to indicate an auto-push here. Is that standard?

PartyPoker, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com (http://www.pregopoker.com/hhconv/convert)

UTG (t1210)
UTG+1 (t2565)
CO (t1320)
Button (t585)
Hero (t1195)
BB (t1125)

Preflop: Hero is in SB with 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif
<font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, <font color="gray">UTG+1 folds</font>, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>, <font color="gray">Button folds</font>, <font color="gray">Hero folds</font>

[Sciolist]

Well, I wouldn't. It works towards ruining your image for a small gain. What kind of percentage does SNGPT give this? I don't have it installed here.

[11t]

If the bb is tight and I haven't done anything crazy I would.

if your read of villain is that he's playing tight it's definitely +EV... but becomes decidedly not as you expand BB's calling range.

with a calling range of 44+,A7s+,A9o+,KJs+, it's +0.6%
with a calling range of 22+,A2s+,A3o+,KTs+,KJo+,QJs, it's -0.1%

[Hendricks433]

Seems better to wait when your more desperate. Dont want him getting pissed and spite calling you sooner.

[ravensfan]

Along these lines, would this controversial idea work: call, tight villain checks, and you bet the pot on the flop? Shouldn't this actually improve your image (ie, this guy won't push unless he has good cards), AND let you take down the pot.

I dunno, just an idea that might work at the 22s where there's a mix of donks and good players, and you can position yourself as a tight donk who "plays poker in the late rounds", and gain a bit more respect on the pushes??

Then again, this could be a good way to drop $250 when you could've easily won $150 by pushing...

[Sciolist]

You have too many BB to do that. This is a good way to run out of chips, in my book. I'd rather be doing that kind of thing if he were button and I were BB, and I were approaching terminal shortness.

[ravensfan]

Yeah, i was thinking that too... If this gamble doesn't work, then you're just spewing chips huh?
Besides, representing yourself as a weak donk this late in tourney, can't necessarily be a good thing.

[Scuba Chuck]

Fold, don't think twice.

[golfcchs]

This is a pretty easy fold here you stack is just way to big.

[pergesu]

Dude you REALLY have to learn to assign different ranges to your opponents. I'm not at my SNGPT machine, but I can guarantee you that this is NOT an auto-push against an average $22er. In fact I'll bet it's an auto-fold.

[ QUOTE ]
Dude you REALLY have to learn to assign different ranges to your opponents. I'm not at my SNGPT machine, but I can guarantee you that this is NOT an auto-push against an average $22er. In fact I'll bet it's an auto-fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

SNGPT says positive $EV except against the preset "maniac" range. Yes, I do not feel strong on assigning ranges, but in this case I couldn't see this guy calling off his entire stack on a mediocre hand. Am I wrong?

[Jbrochu]

This is completely dependent on your read of villain and what you think your own table image is. I don't think anyone can make a reasonable decision on this hand without that situational information.

I push T-5o every day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

[ QUOTE ]
This is completely dependent on your read of villain and what you think your own table image is. I don't think anyone can make a reasonable decision on this hand without that situational information.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was 8-tabling so no read. My image was probably ultra-tight, if anyone was paying attention. I built my stack on one hand, folded the rest.

[kyro]

Um. Am I reading this right? You want to push 12BB into an 11BB stack with T5? At a $22.

And there are people here agreeing with you? Wow.

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
I was 8-tabling so no read. My image was probably ultra-tight, if anyone was paying attention.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without a read I probably fold. If I had &lt;= t800 same circumstances (no read, tight image) I push.

[ QUOTE ]
Um. Am I reading this right? You want to push 12BB into an 11BB stack with T5? At a $22.

And there are people here agreeing with you? Wow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I didn't say I WANT to. I actually folded, but was curious so I ran it through SNGPT and was surprised at the results, so opened it up for discussion.

I'm not sure what I think yet. It completely depends on villain's range, and whether I want to put a dent in my ultra-tight table image that could come back to haunt me when the blinds are more tasty.

[kyro]

This is a terrible push. Seriously. The slight EV you might be gaining by pushing is nothing compared to the EV you hold over the other players when you have 10BB. Just play poker and don't start getting desperate when you have a lot of chips.

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
Um. Am I reading this right? You want to push 12BB into an 11BB stack with T5? At a $22.

And there are people here agreeing with you? Wow.

[/ QUOTE ]

You really think that's crazy? If I have a tight image and think villain is fairly tight I do this every time. This being a $22 and the BB having a similar size stack is more of an argument to push rather than fold.

At a higher buy-in I would lean towards folding.

If the big blind had a much smaller or much larger stack I would lean towards folding.

Am I way off base here?

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Um. Am I reading this right? You want to push 12BB into an 11BB stack with T5? At a $22.

And there are people here agreeing with you? Wow.

[/ QUOTE ]

You really think that's crazy? If I have a tight image and think villain is fairly tight I do this every time. This being a $22 and the BB having a similar size stack is more of an argument to push rather than fold.

At a higher buy-in I would lean towards folding.

If the big blind had a much smaller or much larger stack I would lean towards folding.

Am I way off base here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. The fact you think pushing at the $22s is better than pushing at the $55s is worrisome.

[The Yugoslavian]

OP,

Wow, you're surely abusing SNGPT b/c there's no way it indicates a push any two here.

Yugoslav

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
OP,

Wow, you're surely abusing SNGPT b/c there's no way it indicates a push any two here.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

Half the forum is apparently abusing it.

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes. The fact you think pushing at the $22s is better than pushing at the $55s is worrisome.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the reasons the $22's are so easy to beat is the sub-optimal bubble play. This typically means getting too tight, not too loose at the bubble. (Bad players are loose early and tight late, the opposite of proper strategy.)

When I play higher levels, I loosen up my calling standards around the bubble because I know more players understand bubble play and will be loosening up their pushing range. For the same reason, I tighten up on my bubble pushes at higher levels because I'm more likely to get called.

[ QUOTE ]
OP,

Wow, you're surely abusing SNGPT b/c there's no way it indicates a push any two here.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you run the numbers?

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes. The fact you think pushing at the $22s is better than pushing at the $55s is worrisome.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the reasons the $22's are so easy to beat is the sub-optimal bubble play. This typically means getting too tight, not too loose at the bubble. (Bad players are loose early and tight late, the opposite of proper strategy.)

When I play higher levels, I loosen up my calling standards around the bubble because I know more players understand bubble play and will be loosening up their pushing range. For the same reason, I tighten up on my bubble pushes at higher levels because I'm more likely to get called.

[/ QUOTE ]

IT'S SIX HANDED!!!

[ZeroPointMachine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Um. Am I reading this right? You want to push 12BB into an 11BB stack with T5? At a $22.

And there are people here agreeing with you? Wow.

[/ QUOTE ]



You really think that's crazy? If I have a tight image and think villain is fairly tight I do this every time. This being a $22 and the BB having a similar size stack is more of an argument to push rather than fold.

At a higher buy-in I would lean towards folding.

If the big blind had a much smaller or much larger stack I would lean towards folding.

Am I way off base here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Look at it this way:

You have around $15 EV in this tourney right now. Pushing is probably worth about 15 cents right now.

If you make it to the bubble you may have $25-$30 EV in the tourney. You may have several opportunities to push worth 30 cents or more each. However, these opportunities only arise when you can put your opponents on an accurate hand range.(preferably as tight as possible)

The more confidence you have in their calling ranges the more profitable spots you are going to find.

Can you see how raising here damages you by hurting your ability to put your opponents on accurate ranges and make better decisions in the future?

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OP,

Wow, you're surely abusing SNGPT b/c there's no way it indicates a push any two here.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you run the numbers?

[/ QUOTE ]

For this exact situation? Nope....I'm at work anyway right now and can't unless I wanna do it old school non-SNGPT style, which I surely don't.

I checked with my magic forumbot 8 ball and it says 'FOLD, MOERON'.....so, that's good enuf for me.

Yugoslav

I just ran this with HERO holding 72o and it's still +$EV with villain at a "loose" preset range.

[caretaker1]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold, don't think twice.

[/ QUOTE ]

[The Yugoslavian]

Get some new presets.

Also make sure 'equity modeling' is off or whatever. Then ask eastbay if your SNGPT isn't working or how you can fix how you use it.

Yugoslav

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OP,

Wow, you're surely abusing SNGPT b/c there's no way it indicates a push any two here.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you run the numbers?

[/ QUOTE ]

For this exact situation? Nope....I'm at work anyway right now and can't unless I wanna do it old school non-SNGPT style, which I surely don't.

I checked with my magic forumbot 8 ball and it says 'FOLD, MOERON'.....so, that's good enuf for me.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

Your 8-ball called you a moron and couldn't even spell it right? Oh, the irony!

I hear you, seems like an easy fold to me too, which is why I was surprised by the SNGPT results.

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
IT'S SIX HANDED!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, good point... For some reason I was looking at this with my mind attuned to the bubble. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Get some new presets.

Also make sure 'equity modeling' is off or whatever. Then ask eastbay if your SNGPT isn't working or how you can fix how you use it.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

What calling range do you assign to villain in this specific hand? No reads.

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes. The fact you think pushing at the $22s is better than pushing at the $55s is worrisome.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the reasons the $22's are so easy to beat is the sub-optimal bubble play. This typically means getting too tight, not too loose at the bubble. (Bad players are loose early and tight late, the opposite of proper strategy.)

[/ QUOTE ]

You're missing a crucial point here, which is that the bad players' ranges don't change very much as we approach the bubble. That's why we say they're "too loose early and too tight late."

A good player will look at the situation and try to determine how loose or tight he needs to be. A bad player just has his preset call ranges, not taking into account the situation.

When kyro says that pushing is bad at the 22s, it applies mostly to when blinds are worth picking up, but you still have a relatively nice stack &gt;8BB, and certainly when you're sitting rather pretty at 12BB as in this case. When your opponent will call you with [censored] like QJ, he's being too loose, and that ends up hurting you because your hand has little intrinsic value. When blinds are bigger, like 100/200, his unmodified call range is too tight and now a push is enormously +EV for you.

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
Get some new presets.

Also make sure 'equity modeling' is off or whatever. Then ask eastbay if your SNGPT isn't working or how you can fix how you use it.


[/ QUOTE ]

My SNGPT says push is +EV unless you assign BB the maniac range. My "equity modeling" is turned off.

I still agree six-handed makes this a fold for reasons explained by Zero but OP is correct regarding SNGPT output.

[ QUOTE ]
Look at it this way:

You have around $15 EV in this tourney right now. Pushing is probably worth about 15 cents right now.

If you make it to the bubble you may have $25-$30 EV in the tourney. You may have several opportunities to push worth 30 cents or more each. However, these opportunities only arise when you can put your opponents on an accurate hand range.(preferably as tight as possible)

The more confidence you have in their calling ranges the more profitable spots you are going to find.

Can you see how raising here damages you by hurting your ability to put your opponents on accurate ranges and make better decisions in the future?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said. I don't know how much image matters at the $22s, I just don't have enough experience. But I know that even the biggest of donks notices when you push 10xBB from the SB into his BB. Could induce a call later when you don't really want it.

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
When kyro says that pushing is bad at the 22s, it applies mostly to when blinds are worth picking up, but you still have a relatively nice stack &gt;8BB, and certainly when you're sitting rather pretty at 12BB as in this case. When your opponent will call you with [censored] like QJ, he's being too loose, and that ends up hurting you because your hand has little intrinsic value. When blinds are bigger, like 100/200, his unmodified call range is too tight and now a push is enormously +EV for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you. I was evaluating this as a bubble play, not six-handed. Pin the tail on the donkey... /images/graemlins/grin.gif