2/4 - 99 OOP - Something a little different

[ClaytonN]

UTG+1 seems like a solid postflop player, 14/8/4 in a small sample of only 70 hands. MP1 is a relative unknown.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (9 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 calls, Button folds, Hero calls.

River: (9.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>

[Solami17]

I think a turn raise is best here. If he reraises, call down and check the river where it would be best to check/call.

If he only calls a turn raise, lead out. If he raises the river, call down.

[jskills]

Can you explain the line you took and why please?

Is it a simple case of WA/WB?

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
I think a turn raise is best here. If he reraises, call down ... If he only calls a turn raise, lead out. If he raises the river, call down.


[/ QUOTE ]
wow.

Is the river bet hoping to fold a T?

[chief444]

Interesting one.

Given the turn play the river bet is good. The turn is close but I would play it the same. You're pretty likely to be ahead of MP1 (50%+). You're maybe 35-40% against UTG's range (9 combo's KTs/QTs/JTs, 4 combos of 77/55, and 2 combos of A5s you lose to and a few spade combos, 3 A7s combos, and 6 combos of 88 and maybe 66 is in there that you're ahead of). He may fold a weak T if you raise. But that seems unlikely and with MP1 calling along you're hand is probably still worth a call but I don't think your hand is strong enough for anything else. Check/folding the turn is probably not giving up a lot either. But I think it's worth it to continue. So I'd play it the same.

[chief444]

No, it's for value whenever his hand is best. If he checks most better hands will bet but some worse hands that will call a bet will check through if given the chance. IF UTG missed a draw he'll likely give up on the river as well and then hero misses value from MP if he doesn't bet it.

[Solami17]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think a turn raise is best here. If he reraises, call down ... If he only calls a turn raise, lead out. If he raises the river, call down.


[/ QUOTE ]
wow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow what?

[chief444]

"wow" as in putting in 3 BB's on the turn here is really bad. Calling a river raise especially after he c/raises the turn is really bad. Raising the turn seems bad to me as well considering he isn't good that often really and when he is his opponents likely have a combined 15+ outs.

[hobbsmann]

I 3-bet preflop as you would like this to be as shorthanded as possible. BB will almost certainly fold if you 3-bet and the 14/8 UTG1 will also likely fold a fair share of his range to a 3-bet.

As for the postflop play I actually don't see any other way to really play this after UTG1 donks the flop. Donking the turn might be best, but your line seems fine although I think this is a case that the c/c, c/c, bet/fold is best.

[MrEngenic]

I think I fold the flop. Anyone else?
I don't know what UTG+1 is donking with but probably either a T or flushdraw+overcards. Button probably has overcards and MP1 at least one overcard. It looks like you are either WB or ahead but half the deck will beat you on the turn or river.

When you do decide to call the flop I like the rest.

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
Donking the turn might be best...

[/ QUOTE ]

Hell Yeah!

My plan for the hand:

1. Check the flop, planning to raise a bet from late position.

2. If a bet comes from early position, I'm calling the flop and donking any undercard turn.



As for pre-flop, I don't think three-betting is necessary. Often it will only get us in a bloated pot out of position against like 3 opponents, which is a bad position. I like taking the overlay on my set outs and maintaining my check-raising privileges.

[McGahee]

I also vote for a turn donk.
The river is kind of a weird spot because there are a considerable number of "solid" postflop players who will inexplicably bet OC's on the river, so it'd be tough to check/fold and check/call kinda sucks as well so I think I like the bet given the way you played the other streets.

[ QUOTE ]
No, it's for value whenever his hand is best. If he checks most better hands will bet but some worse hands that will call a bet will check through if given the chance. IF UTG missed a draw he'll likely give up on the river as well and then hero misses value from MP if he doesn't bet it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still can't see ANY worse hand calling this river when Hero pops out of the blue on a blank and donks.

Are you hoping MP has a 7, a 2, pocket 4s?
I don't get what value Hero's missing.

I think you've got a much better chance of a villian betting a worse hand in this situation than someone calling with a worse one.

I'm obviously completely missing something here...

[Alexthegreat]

What are you guys donking the turn for?

[MrEngenic]

Why don't you guys fold the flop with bet-call-call in front and oop?

Deranged is my hero. I love his line here. I think a donk turn would clear up the hand quite nicely for us. A T is going to pop, a 5 is going to pop, an overpair is going to pop, in which case we have our 2 lovely outs (bad) but we'll likely be HU from there (good) or can release and be done with it. Any other holdings will either fold (good) or we have charged them to chase (good).

The way it was played, I'm with kwaz on the river play. I don't see UTG+1 laying down to our bet and he might pop us if he does have a T or a 5. The other villain is a mystery. We might have the best hand, we might not. We're pretty much 1 in 3 against a reasonable range of hands for our two villains, so let's not pay two bets or bet/fold when we can check/call and potentially take down 9-11BB for 1. I just don't see the value of the river donk.

[MrEngenic]

Bump, why don't you guys consider folding the flop?

[Jim Easton]

Folding might be the best play in this situation. I would check the flop looking to checkraise the preflop raiser, but the bet from the solid postflop player in EP changes things. If you are ahead, you have to dodge 1/3 or more of the deck twice and if you are behind, you only have 1 reasonable out, as the 9s would be questionable. Sometimes the best defense against a semi-bluff is to fold.

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
Bump, why don't you guys consider folding the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mr. E,

Basically, the reason folding the flop is bad is because we simply have too much hand. The important things in this hand:

1. The pot is only four handed. Against three opponents, very often our pair is the only pair or at least the top pair when we have only one overcard on board.

2. The overcard is a T. Basically, I am less scared of overcards the lower in rank they are. I think folding would be more reasonable if the overcard were an A, a bit less so if it were a K, etc...

3. Button not raising the flop makes it considerably less likely he has an overpair.

4. UTG's bet might represent a T, but a solid postflop player might prefer to check-raise a hand like AT here. A bet here might just as well represent a hand like Q/images/graemlins/spade.gifJ/images/graemlins/spade.gif, or even something like 88. (The fact that UTG is likely to have a ton of outs against us is precisely the reason we prefer to wait until the turn to get aggressive, because an overcard or /images/graemlins/spade.gif turn means we can probably be done with the hand).

Those are my thoughts.