A Turn Raise (1 of 3)

[Clarkmeister]

The forum is kinda slow lately, so here are 3 more hands ala my "A Turn Check" series.

In all 3 examples, I ask you to put me on a hand and rate my play based on what you put my opponent on.

Hand 1: 20-40.

Somewhat straightforward mediocre player limps UTG, I raise in the CO, blinds fold. Headsup.

Flop: Kh 8s 3h. UTG bets, I call.

Turn: 7c. UTG bets, I raise.

[cosmo kramer]

Since the player is straightforward, I would put him on a King with either a jack or ten kicker. The fact he bet the turn makes me rule out a flush draw. I would think you have AK or KQ, maybe an outside shot at 88. Also, based on his straightforwardness (is that a word?), I think the raise is correct because you probably know exactly where he's at. That's my guess, but I don't think I'm very good at these type of guess my hand questions.

[Diplomat]

There is a fairly wide range of hands that I'd put you on here; there is a good chance if I were playing against you, I would have checked the turn. BUT given that I did not check the turn...

I'd put you on a pretty big hand, because you are not expecting the other player to fold. It looks like you waited for the turn to lower the hammer because you did not want to slow your opponent down, and wanted to tie him into the hand. I'd tentitively eliminate semi-bluff hands like A /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif, etc.

I'd also eliminate pairs less than a king, because I think you would have raised the flop with a hand like that. I could be way off, but just my thinking.

I'd put you on any of the following: AA, KK, AK, 88. I do not think you would raise the turn with anything that could not beat a decent king, because you would not expect a mediocre player to bet into a pre-flop raiser, particularily a decent pre-flop raiser.

I think your hand range largely depends on what you think the other player would bet into you with. If my assumptions are correct, you would not raise the turn with a hand that could not beat an ok king.

If I had to rank-order them, it would be AK or 88, then AA, then KK. My outside range hands would be KQ, KJs, QQ, 33. Am I even close?

-Diplomat

[Diplomat]

Oops, forgot about the other part, his hand.

I'd tentitively guess KJ or KT, possibly a flopped set. (but that largely depends on what you actually hold) I cannot see him playing K8s, but it's not unreasonable if he is a poor player.

That said, I think you played it fine. I'd be tempted to raise the flop if he was agressive, but lowering the hammer on the turn (or even the river) is fine if he is not too agressive.

It's tough enough putting someone else on a hand, never mind two people. I like these posts. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

-Diplomat

[Philuva]

I think you need to post the whole hand. Otherwise, the range of hands is too great.

I put you on AKo, AA, KK or 88. Maybe QQ to TT with the intention of checking the river unles you hit your set.

I put him on KJ or KT, unles he 3-bets the turn in which case I would have to change my opinion.

[ML4L]

Hey Clark,

I'm guessing that UTG has a mediocre king (KJ?) and that you have T /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. If I'm correct, then I like the raise if you think there's any chance that he'll let his hand go. If he's the stubborn type, I might just call.

ML4L

[Clarkmeister]

"I think you need to post the whole hand. Otherwise, the range of hands is too great."

A good point. I won't let these 3 threads sit too long because of this. But it is similar to what happens at the initial table, no? You change your reads on the fly as new info comes about.

Isn't it at least mildly useful to not know though? Kind of the ultimate "it doesn't matter what I have, I just play against what they have". If you are one of these players, what are you putting me on and based on that what becomes your best course of action? A kind of "levels of thought" problem. At their heart, that is what these posts are about, I think.

[delroylindo]

clark 88, utg KQ

[Clarkmeister]

"Hand 1: 20-40.

Somewhat straightforward mediocre player limps UTG, I raise in the CO, blinds fold. Headsup.

Flop: Kh 8s 3h. UTG bets, I call.

Turn: 7c. UTG bets, I raise."


I had AhTh and read UTG for a pair, quite likely top pair-fair kicker.

How do you like my play?

[elysium]

hi clark
i put your opponent on JJ or TT to perhaps a weak K; i have you on AQo. in all of these examples, if my read is right, and whew, there isn't a lot to go on, but if i'm right, i like your play against the type of opposition that it looks like you're up against. in this example, if you do have AQ, the turn raise is your best chance to take down the pot.

[anatta]

You will hit your 12 outter about a quarter of the time. If there is some chance he will fold, coupled with some chance that he is on a heart draw allowing you to take a free showdown, I like your play. He's not going to reraise you, and you have something to showdown. A lot depends on how he views you, if he sees you as a tricky player who likes to make moves, he probably wont fold his king decent kicker.

[CrackerZack]

Since I haven't cheated which is raise I put you on AK or KQ, most likely KQ. I like the raise heads up. I would usually raise the flop though.

[CrackerZack]

If the opponent will laydown something like KJ or KT, I like it, if not, I don't. Completely dependent on if the player will fold TP with mediocre kicker.

[bruce]

I haven't read the other posts but I did read your post about what your actual hand was. I like this type of play as long as you don't overdue it. If you are called and you improve you gain additional action in the future. Plus I would expect you to win a fair number of times when your opponent folds his hand. In LA when players overdue this
it is almost impossible for them to pick up the pot on fourth street and often times they are reraised and they
have now pay a premium to make their draw reducing their
implied odds.

Bruce

[DrSavage]

I think i like raise the flop/take the free card on the turn strategy more. He probably has you beat if you don't hit an ace or flush.

[cosmo kramer]

I don't really like the raise. To me, when you say mediocre, that makes me think weak passive. I don't see these type of players laying down top pair very much, so I don't believe you are going to get him to fold. You do have plenty of outs, but you are still the underdog in the hand. The raise might get you a free showdown, but you don't really need that because you already know you need to make your hand to win. I think it would have been better for you to make a standard free card raise on the flop, which should work because most mediocre players go for it.

[Ed S.]

I would rather favor raising the the flop here with this hand but at the same time rasing the turn migh look like you hit a set or Two pair somewhere and might give your oppoent reason to pause/think about his hand. Now granted you mostlikely put him on the King with decent kicker. He isn't going to fold to your raise on the turn since he put money in on the turn and seemingly top pair, but what you have done now is put doubt in his mind and if a blank comes off for him on the river and something scary for him he just may throw away that hand on the river when he checks it to you after you go ahead and bet. I believe you did this because the raise with two flush cards on the flop is an easy read for any knoweledgable poker player and you would be sniffed out on that pretty quickly when you check the turn. My thinking here is that your thinking of the Said player in front might be or is capable of throwing away top pair on the end. Verse loose-passive players that are calling stations this play might not be desired, but it would be warranted if you are trying to mix up your image at the table.


Ed S.

[elysium]

hi clark
played great. this is the kind of great play i'm speaking about in my previous thread.

[Coilean]

You sure do seem to try to move people off of top pair a lot. I've never had much luck with that, how's it going for you? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Clarkmeister]

I raised the turn, he folded.

I find it amusing that most people put me on a set (what most opponents would also put me on) but they didn't like the raise. If its that "obvious" that I have at least TP/TK, then against a thinking mid-limit player shouldn't this line give me the highest EV, presuming my read is correct? Play it like they would play it. Give them the signals they are looking for.

[Clarkmeister]

"You sure do seem to try to move people off of top pair a lot"

I really don't do it much. In fact, these are the only 3 examples in my memory I can think of. But I'm sure that since I posted them all together that it looks like I never muck.

[Clarkmeister]

"I'd put you on a pretty big hand, because you are not expecting the other player to fold. It looks like you waited for the turn to lower the hammer because you did not want to slow your opponent down, and wanted to tie him into the hand. I'd tentitively eliminate semi-bluff hands like Ah Qh , etc."

That's what makes it work, isn't it? Most mediocre mid limit players are capable of exactly the same train of thought as you lay out above and many (especially in Vegas I suspect) are more than capable of mucking vs the "obvious" AK or set that "expects" to get paid off.

[Clarkmeister]

"He probably has you beat if you don't hit an ace or flush. "

Isn't there more to this game than simply putting your opponent on a hand?

[Diplomat]

[ QUOTE ]

That's what makes it work, isn't it? Most mediocre mid limit players are capable of exactly the same train of thought as you lay out above and many (especially in Vegas I suspect) are more than capable of mucking vs the "obvious" AK or set that "expects" to get paid off.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh. I've missed something in your original post then. I read your player description as more calling-station than mediocre/thinking.

That said, a turn semi-bluff makes more sense.

I do still think though that raising the turn against an opponent that does not think much about the game might be a mistake. It could be the average games that I play in vs. Vegas games, but up here people seem to pay off turn raises more. No one takes you seriously until you three-bet the turn. :P

-Diplomat

[Pot-A]

I agree. Not very many people where I play would lay a hand like KQ down in this situation, since it looks like a semi-bluff or a "I'm gonna call the river with this hand anyway, might as well take advantage of my position and raise the turn" raise.