Is GWB exploiting a state of perpetual war to stifle internal dissent?

Ted Rall is one of the most passionate, articulate writers we have in America today. He understands democracy and exposes those who wish to slowly repeal it.

I have heard Rush Limbaugh do an entire segment bashing the man, without once mentioning his name. Rush did not want Ted to lift the veil of ignorance from his listeners minds.

Rall's latest is a masterpiece.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ucru/20051228/cm_ucru/thereturnoftotalinformationawareness

I put this one right up there with republican jesus.
http://www.uexpress.com/tedrall/?uc_full_date=20050201

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I need to read no further than the following quote from the article:

indicates that the White House is flipping ahead to the next page in its Hitler playbook

To know that this author has precisely zero credence.

[Exsubmariner]

I believe every letter of this:

[ QUOTE ]
As did the phony Verizon employee tearing out of my building's basement, leaving the phone switching box open, when I demanded to see his identification. He drove away in an unmarked van.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure this guy will disappear soon for revealing the GWB master plan to become Dictator For Life. Sounds like they are going to need lots of glowsticks and a really good air conditioner. I'm suprised they didn't already do it for the Jesus article. Must be getting sloppy.

Edit to ask pretty please for the link of Rush Limbaugh bashing this man that you mentioned. I don't remember it, but I bet it would be pretty good, if Rush even did one.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
Ted Rall is one of the most passionate, articulate writers we have in America today. He understands democracy and exposes those who wish to slowly repeal it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good to see you've cemented yourself as a troll.

How does invoking the name of Hitler invalidate his opinion?

I don't get why people say this.

As for ex: This was back when the Minnesota Senator was killed in the plane crash and Rall suggested that it was an assasination by the government due to his anti-war stance.

[Exsubmariner]

Didn't find El Rushbo, but I did turn this up:

Michelle Malkin about Ted Rall (http://michellemalkin.com/archives/000160.htm)

[DVaut1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ted Rall is one of the most passionate, articulate writers we have in America today. He understands democracy and exposes those who wish to slowly repeal it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good to see you've cemented yourself as a troll.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having an opinion makes one a troll?

I assume what you really mean to say is: having an opinion I don't like = troll.

Correct?

[Exsubmariner]

Just look at how many times Rall was wrong in this article. (http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1026-26.htm)

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]

Having an opinion makes one a troll?

I assume what you really mean to say is: having an opinion I don't like = troll.

Correct?

[/ QUOTE ]
Have you ever read Ted Rall?

Btw, his trollishness has been established over a while now. This is just the icing on the trollish cake. If he had replaced "Ted Rall" with "Michael Savage", I would have come to the same conclusion. Both are nutjobs

[DVaut1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Having an opinion makes one a troll?

I assume what you really mean to say is: having an opinion I don't like = troll.

Correct?

[/ QUOTE ]
Have you ever read Ted Rall?

Btw, his trollishness has been established over a while now. This is just the icing on the trollish cake. If he had replaced "Ted Rall" with "Michael Savage", I would have come to the same conclusion. Both are nutjobs

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Yes, I've read Ted Rall.
2) Merely citing/approving/agreeing with nutjobs doesn't make you a troll; it makes you a nutjob, or merely someone who likes and agrees with nutjobs.

Maybe we just have different definitions of what a troll is. I think of it as meaning something along the lines of 'someone who posts on a message board with the explicit and obvious purpose of starting a flame war'.

I think you use it to mean 'someone I don't agree with.'

[Exsubmariner]

Let's not forget about Tillman (http://www.leftwatch.com/archives/years/2004/000015.html)

[DVaut1]

[ QUOTE ]
Didn't find El Rushbo, but I did turn this up:

Michelle Malkin about Ted Rall (http://michellemalkin.com/archives/000160.htm)

[/ QUOTE ]

As a side note, everytime I see Michelle Malkin on a cable news network, I generally assume Ann Coulter must have been unavailable.

[Exsubmariner]

Look, Wrong Again (http://www.livejournal.com/users/reality_hammer/tag/ted%20rall)

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe we just have different definitions of what a troll is. I think of it as meaning something along the lines of 'someone who posts on a message board with the explicit and obvious purpose of starting a flame war'.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, that's my definition as well. So think. Why did he start this thread about Ted Rall if not to stir the shitpot?

We were all wrong about Pat Tillman. He told one of his fellow soldiers in Iraq that the war was bleeping illegal.
He was going to meet with Noam Chomsky when he returned. Its too bad we lost him, he could have been one of our greatest presidents ever.

I am glad you are exploring his work and its criticism. People hate him because he is a unique voice that is outside of the corporate media. Sometimes hes wrong, but hes usually right.

I just wish certain posters would stay out of my threads unless they wish to add to the discussion.

[DVaut1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe we just have different definitions of what a troll is. I think of it as meaning something along the lines of 'someone who posts on a message board with the explicit and obvious purpose of starting a flame war'.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, that's my definition as well. So think. Why did he start this thread about Ted Rall if not to stir the shitpot?

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a difference between stirring the pot and trying to start a flame war. I'd guess half of the posts on the Politics forum are typically some form of schadenfreude meant to stir the shitpot, as you say.

But I assume he started a thread about Ted Rall hoping to start a discussion about Ted Rall and the content of Ted Rall's writing.

I get what you're saying, but in many ways this board is one big shitpot that's constantly stirred. I don't think that necessarily means stirring the shitpot is equivalent to intentionally starting a flame war -- let's make a distinction between stirring the shitpot (trying to start discussion that might include barbs thrown back and forth -- that's what politics and jockeying for power is all about, right?) versus a flame war (a post meant merely to upset people). I think we ought to be very careful about what we label as 'flaming' and 'trolling' in the Politics forum; it's much easier to spot in the poker forums (a poster whose only goal is to criticize, name-call, etc. and not contribute to the poker discussion) than it is in the Politics forum -- as a legitimate component of genuine political discouse is strong criticism, vivid dialouge and imagery, etc. I don't have much sympathy for those who come to the Politics forum and find all the debating and arguing in poor taste -- anyone who feels this way has come to the wrong place, IMO.

If you see no distinction between the two, that's fine -- if that's the case, however, then there probably isn't anyone here who isn't a troll, because if merely saying you agree, respect, or like Ted Rall constitutes the intentional stirring of the shitpot, which is tantamount to starting a flame war, which makes the poster in question a troll - then we're all guilty of it or something similar, except for those too cowardly or ignorant to have strong opinions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Rall

The first contraversy on this page is very interesting.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
How does invoking the name of Hitler invalidate his opinion?

I don't get why people say this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it goes to your credibility as a poster when you are constantly using sources that hold extreme views or draw extreme conclusions or make extreme comparisons. And since you should know this will be the reaction of even posters who generally are more likely to agree with your overall views, then that brings up the question of whether your post is sincere or rather intentional trolling.

[DVaut1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How does invoking the name of Hitler invalidate his opinion?

I don't get why people say this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it goes to your credibility as a poster when you are constantly using sources that hold extreme views or draw extreme conclusions or make extreme comparisons. And since you should know this will be the reaction of even posters who generally are more likely to agree with your overall views, then that brings up the question of whether your post is sincere or rather intentional trolling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why does having opinions that are unpopular or not widely held automatically make you a troll? Or similarly, why does merely citing someone who shares your not-widely-held views make you a troll?

I don't understand; is bringing up anything controversial trolling? That's what I seem to be gathering from you and BCPVP.

[xpokerx]

Just a quick question, what happens in 2008, when Bush doesn't win reelection, to all the "dictator for life" and "tyranny" people? Do they still insist that GWB, the man they call an idiot, is somehow pulling the strings on the nation even when out of office?

[BCPVP]

No one is saying that this post constitutes an instant troll label. It's the general tone and content of almost all his posts here that makes it so. This is just further evidence. Even though I don't agree with you on just about everything, I still don't consider you a troll, DVaut.

They only attack me because I am such an effective arguer.

They can't dispute my statements so they go after my character. They are used to the faux news dem-punching bags like Colmes.

[ QUOTE ]
Just a quick question, what happens in 2008, when Bush doesn't win reelection, to all the "dictator for life" and "tyranny" people? Do they still insist that GWB, the man they call an idiot, is somehow pulling the strings on the nation even when out of office?

[/ QUOTE ]

GWB does not pull any strings. The monied elite pull the strings and he moves.

[xpokerx]

So then it's not Bush you have a problem with?

GWB is the figure-head of the interests of the monied elite in the US. They are people who want to cut taxes for the ultra wealthy and slash wages for the working class.

[xpokerx]

Last I checked I was working class. Last I checked, I got a tax cut. Last I checked, my wages have increased. Do you have any actual data to back up your claim? Or, are you just repeating what they tell you to?

[ QUOTE ]
The monied elite pull the strings and he moves.


[/ QUOTE ]

I've asked you to back your ridiculous statements with credible evidence before, and you have failed to do so. Nonetheless, I'll prompt you again - please cite the evidence which led you to this thoughtful, educated conclusion. First define the "moves" you indicate, and then reference the monied elite "puppeteers" who initiated the move.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
Why does having opinions that are unpopular or not widely held automatically make you a troll? Or similarly, why does merely citing someone who shares your not-widely-held views make you a troll?

I don't understand; is bringing up anything controversial trolling? That's what I seem to be gathering from you and BCPVP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously in this forum over all others, the line between trolling and merely holding an unpopular opinion is going to be very blurry. As an example, when someone espouses opinions say that are exremely and blatantly racist or uses sources that are, there is not only the possibility that such a poster is just a nutjob, but also more likely that he doesn't really believe those views and is just trying to stir things up in a forum where they are always stirred up anyway.

And regarding the OP's post and criticisms of his using sources that compare a president he doesn't like to Hitler, how would you feel if I used sources comparing a leftwing politician to Lenin? Trying to paint a politician and his views as exremely radical one way or the other is usually just a case of political hackjob demagoguery by a person who only cares about persuading others to his views and doesn't care if he uses false sources or misleading conclusions to do so, in addition to perhaps not having a firm grasp of logic in the first place.

There you go misrepresenting his words.

He wasnt comparing the president to hitler, did you actually read it? He is comparing his tactics to hitler's tactics, which is completely true.

Lists of Bush's donors are widely avaiable.

Bush is pro-ultra wealthy and anti-american on the issues of:

Protecting the environment
Energy Policy
Privatization of Social Security
Health Care
Illegal immigration
and Tax Cuts for the rich

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

How does invoking the name of Hitler invalidate his opinion?

Because it's hyperbolic and completely innacurate. The Nazi reference is so overused that those who use it only serve to minimize the true enormity of Nazi Germany.

Then there's the Jewish thing. Calling the President who is the staunchest supporter of Israel in US History "Hitler-like" is so laughable that I fear I demean myself for even lowering myself to answer.

[DVaut1]

[ QUOTE ]
And regarding the OP's post and criticisms of his using sources that compare a president he doesn't like to Hitler, how would you feel if I used sources comparing a leftwing politician to Lenin? Trying to paint a politician and his views as exremely radical one way or the other is usually just a case of political hackjob demagoguery by a person who only cares about persuading others to his views and doesn't care if he uses false sources or misleading conclusions to do so, in addition to perhaps not having a firm grasp of logic in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't disagree with this in the least; but I don't think political demagoguery is trolling -- it's just par for the course. I don't think you have to look far in the ranks of politicians, media punditry, etc. to find a demagogue or two. We should certainly expect to find some level of demagoguery here.

He didnt call him hitler-like, he called his tactic of using an unending war to stifle internal dissent hitler-like, which is true.

GWB loves the Jewish state because it is a prerequisite for the rapture. what happens to the Jews during the rapture anyway?

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

GWB loves the Jewish state because it is a prerequisite for the rapture. what happens to the Jews during the rapture anyway?

Well, hold on a minute. Some Christian fundies support Israel for that reason, true, but it's a stretch to sat that Dubya does. More likely he supports israel because they're the only true republic in the region, but I guess that doesn't fit your Weltanschauung.

As for what happens to Jews in the event of the Rapture, I believe devout Jews, like devout Christians get whisked up to the firmament while the rest of us sinners have to stay here and deal with the tribulation.

But why trust the word of an avowed unbeliever like me. I'd suggest you try Rapture Ready (http://www.raptureready.com) instead. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Exsubmariner]

The best part is the Rapture Index. I'm bookmarking it. That site rocks.

I think he supports Israel because they are our client state and proxy army in the region.

I believe that it is a falacy that our government cares about the nature of foreign countries' political systems unless vilifing them is convienent for us with respect to propaganda.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I especially like the hate mail from the post-trib and mid-trib Rapture supporters

[mapen]

yes

[BCPVP]

So, to answer the OP, I'd like to know what the title of this thread and the content of the OP have to do with each other?

Its a quote (that is true) from the link I posted.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I believe that it is a falacy that our government cares about the nature of foreign countries' political systems unless vilifing them is convienent for us with respect to propaganda.

Meh. This is true of all government.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
GWB is the figure-head of the interests of the monied elite in the US. They are people who want to cut taxes for the ultra wealthy and slash wages for the working class.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I would like to see taxes cut for the ultra-wealthy and wages slashed for much of the working class. Guess that makes me one of the moneyed elite /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

how much do you make per year?

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
how much do you make per year?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not so much that I couldn't benefit substantially from paying less for many basic goods and services.

It's not just how much you make, it's how much you have to spend to get your lawn mowed, to get your hair cut, to get your car worked on...etc.

[Exsubmariner]

As Moderator at 2+2, he makes a bazilliongillion dollars. And that's just one job. Then there's playing poker on the side.

[Exsubmariner]

So once the lefty loony fringe realized that they were absolutely acting like tools with regards to Tillman, they decided to make him a convert to their cause after he died. Brilliant. I haven't heard this.

Let me see if I have the Pat Tillman [censored] fantasy accurately...

Pat returns from the war saying that it's wrong. He testifies before congress saying that American troops are trained to commit atrocities and that he himself participated in atrocities. He is whisked around the world to meet with all the great liberal thinkers and handed the keys to the gold plated Kerry winning strategy for Presidential Campaigning. Only this time, the media alliance is able to stop the veterans who served with Pat from getting out the truth. It's camelot one more time. The glory days of losing in Vietnam and Watergate are relived as the war on terror fails to prevent a WMD attack in the US. Everyone once again loves liberals because of Pat....

You people are sick.

Provide the documentation from Pat's fellow veterans that he was against the war. I will accept notorized testimony on paper or video provided with proper creditials that the person on the video actually served with Tillman in the form of service records.

Did you get this Tillman hated the war stuff from Rall? He's been so spot on factually correct in everything else he's ever said that it must be true.

This is your chance to be brilliant. You can dazzle me with the evidence I asked for. Or, you can say you are not my monkey. It's up to you.

We won vietnam you idiot, dont you watch fox news?

"I don't believe it," seethed Ann Coulter.

Her contempt was directed at a September 25 San Francisco Chronicle story reporting that former NFL star and Army Ranger war hero Pat Tillman, who was killed in Afghanistan last year, believed the US war on Iraq was "f***ing illegal" and counted Noam Chomsky among his favorite authors. It must have been quite a moment for Coulter, who upon Tillman's death described him in her inimitably creepy fashion as "an American original--virtuous, pure and masculine like only an American male can be." She tried to discredit the story as San Francisco agitprop, but this approach ran into a slight problem: The article's source was Pat Tillman's mother, Mary.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051024/zirin

As for Chomsky, whom Ann Coulter would undoubtedly label "treasonous," Mary Tillman says a private meeting was planned between him and Pat after Pat's return--a meeting that never took place, of course. Chomsky confirms this scenario. This was the real Pat Tillman: someone who, like the majority of this country, was doubting the rationale for war, distrusting his Commander in Chief and looking for answers. The real Pat Tillman, the one with three dimensions, must stick in the throat of the Bush-Coulter gang, a pit in the cherry atop their bloody sundae.

“I can see it like a movie screen,” Baer said. “We were outside of (a city in southern Iraq) watching as bombs were dropping on the town. We were at an old air base, me, Kevin and Pat, we weren’t in the fight right then. We were talking. And Pat said, ‘You know, this war is so f— illegal.’ And we all said, ‘Yeah.’ That’s who he was. He totally was against Bush.”

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/09/25/MNGD7ETMNM1.DTL

[Exsubmariner]

For all those who wish to reference it, this is the Coulter peice on Tillman:

link (http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/anncoulter/2004/12/30/14101.html)

Let me ask you question, how come Pat's mother isn't out shouting at the top of her lungs in front of the Bush ranch in Crawford, Texas?

You'd think she would be MUCH bigger than Cindy Sheehan. It looks like this little liberal exercise of the press went splat like wet toilet paper on a bathroom wall. Probably because no one has heard anything more from Tillman's mom. One would think, at least I do, that if she had a score to settle over the obviously vast right wing conspiracy to kill her peace loving Army Ranger son, she would be out shouting to the rafters and it would be the biggest news for months until she got answers.

Why has none of this happened?

That's where it all falls apart for me.

Go monkey Go.

Cant you read? They lied to her about how he died to manipulate the media. I completely obliterated your assertations you fool. All you can do is resort to ann coultersque name calling lol.

No more calling me a monkey, you go on block now.

[Exsubmariner]

For anyone else who is interested, I thought this web page (http://www.monkeytime.org/archive/May2004.html) about Tillman and his funeral was really illuminating. You have to scroll down some to see the part about Tillman. But, it does give you the sense that it's all really a lot more complicated than you might suspect.

Perhaps these complications are the reason why this story hasn't been beat to death by the press. I can't believe for a minute that they would abstain from it out of respect for the family.

[Exsubmariner]

Oh no, I made a monkey troll's ignore list. I guess he won't call me an idiot anymore.

[DVaut1]

[ QUOTE ]
You'd think she would be MUCH bigger than Cindy Sheehan. It looks like this little liberal exercise of the press went splat like wet toilet paper on a bathroom wall. Probably because no one has heard anything more from Tillman's mom. One would think, at least I do, that if she had a score to settle over the obviously vast right wing conspiracy to kill her peace loving Army Ranger son, she would be out shouting to the rafters and it would be the biggest news for months until she got answers.

Why has none of this happened?

That's where it all falls apart for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have absolutely no idea how Pat Tillman felt about the war, or what his mother does or doesn't believe.

But regardless, merely because his mother hasn't sought attention means 'it all falls apart' for you?

There could be a many, varied reasons why she hasn't sought attention following Pat's death, irrespective of the veracity of stories regarding vast right-wing conspiracies, her son's opposition to the war, etc.

[Exsubmariner]

I can find no fault with your thinking, DVaut.

I honestly don't know how Tillman felt about the war he was in. I do know, that on mission, sometimes, my feelings about what I was doing changed on a daily basis. I read Thereau, too. It did not make me anti-military. Some days I was happy to be a part of something meaningful and some days I felt I was a pawn in a game where I had no stake, other than my own life.

I don't know how is mother feels about his death. I could not begin to fathom the rage or despair she may feel. I cannot understand her motivations for saying what she did to the press. One of her reasons for not embracing the media is perhaps she does not wish to be percieved as a publicity hound capitalizing on the death of her son or perhaps she does not want to be thrown out like so much used kleenex when she is no longer the cause celebe.

So perhaps all the inuendo is true. Perhaps Tillman got fragged on orders straight from the desk of Karl Rove to avoid his meteoric Kerryesque rise to political prominance upon his return, which, as we all know, would have been a disaster for the maniacal power elites which pull the strings of GWB. Perhaps....If only.....

Or maybe it's fevered fantasy from desparate minds, who are desparate to believe they have the world figured out.

More likely, the truth is somewhere in between and will never be known for sure.

I am no longer going to discuss Pat Tillman as political theatre. I cheapen his sacrifice by doing so. So do all those who seek political gain from the deaths of soldiers. For that I feel sorry.

[twowords]

[ QUOTE ]
GWB loves the Jewish state because it is a prerequisite for the rapture. what happens to the Jews during the rapture anyway?

Kurn: Well, hold on a minute. Some Christian fundies support Israel for that reason, true, but it's a stretch to sat that Dubya does. More likely he supports israel because they're the only true republic in the region, but I guess that doesn't fit your Weltanschauung.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I believe that it is a falacy that our government cares about the nature of foreign countries' political systems unless vilifing them is convienent for us with respect to propaganda.


Kurn: Meh. This is true of all government.

[/ QUOTE ]


Hehe, now thats trolling.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

No, it's entirely possible to support Israel for it's form of government and to ultimately not care how accurate that opinion is, *and* it's entirely possible to truly believe that their form of government is of value *and* support it because it helps your own cause (i.e it has propaganda value)

Finally, he thinks that supporting a government for propaganda reasons is unique to some political entities. That is supremely naive.