Caesars Palace 1-2: Deep stacks, Maniacal Bettor, 66 on a K,4,3 flop

[Dynasty]

Since the Caesars Palace poker room opened up in Las Vegas a week ago, I've gone there a few times and tried out the 1-2 no-limit games. With a maximum buy-in of $500 (rather than the normal $200 max in Vegas), there is often quite a bit of money on the table.

In the early Wednesday morning hours, I was on a table that had about $2,700 to $3,300 on it, including several players with $400-$700.

There was one young, drinking, Dutch Boyd lookalike at my table. He played about 67% of his hands. In just about every hand he played, he raised to $20 pre-flop.

This guy was more than willing to back up his pre-flop raises with strong post-flop bets, raises, and re-raises. In one specific hand, he bet $20 into a ~$60 pot on the flop, an opponent check-raised him another $20. He re-raised $100 more. His opponent put him all-in. The guy folded, showing no hand and no draw (on a flop of A,Q,x).

So, he's hyper-aggressive, nearly impossible to intimidate, and enjoying himself while playing this way. But, he's not clueless. He's betting a lot. He'll make loose calls for sure. But, he's not calling huge bets with nothing.

I've been card dead and playing tight. So, I've been nearly invisible at the table.

The hand:

A couple of ultra-loose players limp for $2 to me in mid-late position. They both have about $250 in front of them. I pick up 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I limp as well knowing it will likely get bumped to $20. I have about $425 in front of me. Everyone else folds to the Maniacal Bettor in the big blind who makes his standard raise to $20. The Manical Bettor has about $550 in front of him. Both ultra-loose players call (calling $20 pre-flop raises was rather standard at this table). I called as well.

Four players saw the flop with $77 in the pot (after rake).

The flop is: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif4/images/graemlins/spade.gif3/images/graemlins/club.gif

The Manical Bettor is first to act and bets $20. This is a fairly standard play for him and has taken down quite a few pots. It's also allowed him to fold weak hands when somebody holding a real hand raises expecting to get action from him.

Both ultra-loose players fold and it's heads up between myself and the Maniacal Bettor.

I decided to call. Comments?

Two players saw the turn with $117 in the pot.

The turn is: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif4/images/graemlins/spade.gif3/images/graemlins/club.gifK/images/graemlins/heart.gif

My opponent bet $70.

Your play?

[jsnipes28]

If you think he is capable of folding TT on this board i like a minraise, particularly if you have been invisible all night. Not generally a proponent of this but i feel this might be the spot for it. Should fold him out unless he has a King.
If he is a station then i am pretty sure i just fold because it seems as if he will fire again on river if you call- your description of him certainly didn't make it seem like he would necessarily slow down on river w/o a K and allow for a cheap showdown.

[djoyce003]

I'd raise, fold to further agression.

[Isura]

I prefer a raise preflop. Since you know lag donk will bump it to $20 otherwise, just raise to $10-12 preflop. Has he been reraising people preflop with junk?

I like to raise the flop here. But call,call,call looks okay too.

[TheWorstPlayer]

call. call river.

[cbloom]

I think the people suggesting raising are way off base.

Assume he's betting $70 here, and if you call he'll bet $140 on the river with any two. If you call both you're risking $210 and he can have almost any two so you

What if you raise the turn? Assume you raise to $210, 140 more, he'll fold any hand you beat or reraise them allin on a bluff and you'll have to fold then.

Seems pretty clear you get the most value from call-call.

On the other hand, I don't really like 66 as the hand to call him down with, you'll surely get better spots.

[guns4show]

[ QUOTE ]


On the other hand, I don't really like 66 as the hand to call him down with, you'll surely get better spots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong forum. This is a cash game.

[ajmargarine]

Push preflop the second time it comes to you after looking at villian and saying "I knew you were gonna raise".

Raise the turn. You may push him off of hands that beat you (higher pp's). Unless he has a King he folds or slows down and checks to you on the river. So it's likely you invest the same amount of $$$ in the hand as you would if you call, call; and you have the added benefit of possibly folding hands that beat you.

[ QUOTE ]
Push preflop the second time it comes to you after looking at villian and saying "I knew you were gonna raise".

[/ QUOTE ]
I think playing for a set is more +EV than pushing preflop and making him fold. He might just call you with a coinfip. If you hit your set you're getting paid.

As the board fell I think you need to decide on the flop if you are going to call him down. Either fold on the flop or commit $200 to your 66 unimproved. I prefer a fold. If he has two overs you are flipping, and his betting pattern means nothing, so you aren't getting any information to put him on imporved trash versus unimproved trash. I think this play is only slightly +EV at best.

A better approach to this player is to wait for TPTK and raise flop, call reraise, call two more barrels.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
A better approach to this player is to wait for TPTK and raise flop, call reraise, call two more barrels.

[/ QUOTE ]
No it isn't. A better approach than this one would be to cut him a check for your stack directly and going to eat a piece of pizza.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A better approach to this player is to wait for TPTK and raise flop, call reraise, call two more barrels.

[/ QUOTE ]
No it isn't. A better approach than this one would be to cut him a check for your stack directly and going to eat a piece of pizza.

[/ QUOTE ]
Eh? If you don't agree, it would be helpful if you actually explained why, both to me and my bankroll, because I regularly call down maniacs with TPTK.

My thoughts are based off of this hand:
[ QUOTE ]
This guy was more than willing to back up his pre-flop raises with strong post-flop bets, raises, and re-raises. In one specific hand, he bet $20 into a ~$60 pot on the flop, an opponent check-raised him another $20. He re-raised $100 more. His opponent put him all-in. The guy folded, showing no hand and no draw (on a flop of A,Q,x).

[/ QUOTE ]

[TheWorstPlayer]

Hyper aggro guys get hands too. If you're backing TPTK with your stack every time you're going to lose your stack when he makes a hand. A better strategy is to play small pots with marginal hands and big pots with big hands.

[ QUOTE ]
If you're backing TPTK with your stack every time you're going to lose your stack when he makes a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed, but if he will fire with trash as often as he fires with a made hand (more often, because he always fires with trash, but will only pick up 2 pair or better every 5 flops or so), calling down with TPTK is +EV.

I may lose my stack when he has a hand, but I think he doubles me up more often than he stacks me. It's higher variance for sure, but playing LAGs is always higher variance. Another advantage is that if he is deep, once he doubles you up you can try to stack him again for twice as much with a real hand. Thoughts?

[TheWorstPlayer]

Calling down with TPTK is fine. Raising flop, calling re-raise, and stacking off on turn and river is not fine.

[GrunchCan]

I agree completely with everything TWP has said in this thread.

[cbloom]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling down with TPTK is fine. Raising flop, calling re-raise, and stacking off on turn and river is not fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody's talking about any raises. Maniac is just betting continuation whole way and we're calling down with TPTK. How is that wrong?

If maniac is betting heavy with air how are you supposed to manage pot sizes? Seems like you have to play big pots with TPTK, though of course you can still try to avoid his monsters, but only if he has any kind of patterns or sense of pot sizes and your action.

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody's talking about any raises. Maniac is just betting continuation whole way and we're calling down with TPTK. How is that wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]
I advocated raising flopped TPTK and then calling down. Respected posters think it's terrible so I'm in thinking mode =o

[happyjaypee]

Before reading others responses, I'd say raise min to 140$. Granted this is a sucker move, but your image right now is a weak-tight one. If is is like you said, a thinking player, he'll probably analyse that the weak tight player (you) just hit trip king. I think you win it right there every time he does'nt have a K or better, plus he might fold a bigger pp.

Also, he'll push only when you are obviously beaten so you save money compared to a bigger (or all-in) raise, witch would have the same effect as a min raise if he does'nt have a K or better but would cost you more when he does have it.

BTW, I totally hate the min raise move, I can count on two hands the number of time I do it a year... But right now, I think it as some good value

-Happy /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]

I think playing for a set is more +EV than pushing preflop and making him fold. He might just call you with a coinfip. If you hit your set you're getting paid.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lags rarely have hands good enough to pay you off with. The lag WANTs you to call for set value and check/fold when you miss.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I think playing for a set is more +EV than pushing preflop and making him fold. He might just call you with a coinfip. If you hit your set you're getting paid.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lags rarely have hands good enough to pay you off with. The lag WANTs you to call for set value and check/fold when you miss.

[/ QUOTE ]

This guy isnt lag, hes a maniac ATM.
[ QUOTE ]
So, he's hyper-aggressive, nearly impossible to intimidate, and enjoying himself while playing this way. But, he's not clueless. He's betting a lot. He'll make loose calls for sure. But, he's not calling huge bets with nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Second edit: OK maybe not quite ATM but you can get a good deal of money in when he raises you on the flop...

Third edit: I never said check/fold if you miss, I just do not advocate a push preflop.

[Fallen Hero]

[ QUOTE ]
Before reading others responses, I'd say raise min to 140$. Granted this is a sucker move, but your image right now is a weak-tight one. If is is like you said, a thinking player, he'll probably analyse that the weak tight player (you) just hit trip king. I think you win it right there every time he does'nt have a K or better.

Also, he'll push only when you are obviously beaten so you save money compared to a bigger (or all-in) raise, witch would have the same effect as a min raise if he does'nt have a K or better but would cost you more when he does have it.

BTW, I totally hate the min raise move, I can count on two hands the number of time I do it a year... But right now, I think it as some good value

-Happy /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

you only adressed the times you're behind

[happyjaypee]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Before reading others responses, I'd say raise min to 140$. Granted this is a sucker move, but your image right now is a weak-tight one. If is is like you said, a thinking player, he'll probably analyse that the weak tight player (you) just hit trip king. I think you win it right there every time he does'nt have a K or better.

Also, he'll push only when you are obviously beaten so you save money compared to a bigger (or all-in) raise, witch would have the same effect as a min raise if he does'nt have a K or better but would cost you more when he does have it.

BTW, I totally hate the min raise move, I can count on two hands the number of time I do it a year... But right now, I think it as some good value

-Happy /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

you only adressed the times you're behind

[/ QUOTE ]

no I did'nt:
[ QUOTE ]

I think you win it right there every time he does'nt have a K or better


[/ QUOTE ]
and I have edited my original post (before reading yours) whit:
[ QUOTE ]

, plus he might fold a bigger pp.


[/ QUOTE ]

[Fallen Hero]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Before reading others responses, I'd say raise min to 140$. Granted this is a sucker move, but your image right now is a weak-tight one. If is is like you said, a thinking player, he'll probably analyse that the weak tight player (you) just hit trip king. I think you win it right there every time he does'nt have a K or better.

Also, he'll push only when you are obviously beaten so you save money compared to a bigger (or all-in) raise, witch would have the same effect as a min raise if he does'nt have a K or better but would cost you more when he does have it.

BTW, I totally hate the min raise move, I can count on two hands the number of time I do it a year... But right now, I think it as some good value

-Happy /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

you only adressed the times you're behind

[/ QUOTE ]

no I did'nt:
[ QUOTE ]

I think you win it right there every time he does'nt have a K or better


[/ QUOTE ]
and I have edited my original post (before reading yours) whit:
[ QUOTE ]

, plus he might fold a bigger pp.


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

that's not a very indepth analyses of the times we're ahead /images/graemlins/tongue.gif wich isn't good since we're ahead here most of the time

[happyjaypee]

After going throw the thread, the discution seems to have diverge too calling down whit TPTK. On that matter, I agree whit TWP.

-Happy /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[happyjaypee]

[ QUOTE ]

that's not a very indepth analyses of the times we're ahead wich isn't good since we're ahead here most of the time


[/ QUOTE ]

The poster stated that the vilan is a maniac but thinking player. That he go out of his way to make continuation play but, he also is capable of folding when the pot gets big and it is obvious he is behind.

As I said before, raising more then min does'nt acomplish anyting more then just raising min, and calling him down will cost more then the min raise to find out if we are beat, plus it will often give him 6 live overcard outs, twice, to beat us.

Those overcard outs are the big diference between calling him down whit TPTK and a small pocket pair. compare AT whit 66 on T54r flop, whit AT, he need to have KQ, KJ or KJ to have 6 outs twice. VS 66, any two 7 or above will do.

That's why I stick to TWP opinion on calling down whit TPTK but would try to whit it right there whit minimum risk whit a small pp when I got a high % of chance to be ahead but my opponenet must have redraws. Also keep in mind that our image and our perception of the vilan are crucial in this specific hand. I repeat That I don't advocate this move as a standar play, but I still think it as some value here, vs him.


-Happy /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Dynasty]

I make so few strategy posts these days that I forgot to come back to this last night. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v720/DynastyPoker/bag.gif

For the most part, I was playing this 66 hand for set value against and over-aggressive bettor and two other opponents, all of which would commit lots of chips to the pot with top pair given the table dynamics.

However, the K,4,3 flop gave me the unexpected second pair and I quickly found myself heads-up on the flop where folding second pair for a relatively small $20 bet is a serious mistake against this guy.

I'm not sure my flop call was correct. But, knowing this guy is capable of betting and then re-raising a raise with no hand often has to have the effect of putting the brakes on you from raising marginal hands like second pair of 66. The problem with just calling on the flop is, of course, he keeps firing on the turn just like he did.

In response to my opponent's $70 turn bet into a $117 pot, I did consider folding. But, that's how this guy has been picking up pot after pot against most players at the table. He's betting with nothing and players with "no hand" are folding. When this happens, you've got to redefine what "no hand" is. I don't think 66 on a K,4,3,K board is "no hand" anymore. So, I eliminated folding.

When considering raising, I thought of making it $200 (leaving me with about $185). In my opponent's eyes, that should make me pot committed and probably pot commited in fact. I'm not sure I wanted to be pot commited for all my chips. So, after about 15 seconds of thought, I made the $70 call.

After making the call, I decided not to watch the river card being dealt. My opponent hadn't been giving off much for tells other than acting goofy/over-aggressive so I didn't watch him either. I stimply stared striaght down to avoid giving away any information myself before he acted first on the river. That turned out to be a mistake.

As I was staring down, there was a mini-commotion at the table with comments like "Hold on!" and "Wait!" being said. Without me seeing it, my opponent had apparently checked and turned over his cards. When I looked up, his right arm was extended and his cards apparently face-up in hand or just turned back over. The dealer had his hand extended to block my view of his cards. So, I didn't see anything.

My opponent chekced again for me to see.

The river is: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif4/images/graemlins/spade.gif3/images/graemlins/club.gifK/images/graemlins/heart.gif8/images/graemlins/heart.gif

Your play?

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd raise, fold to further agression.

[/ QUOTE ]

I addressed this somewhat in my turn results post. But, a raise has to be at least to a total of $140 (and I was considering a raise to $200 total). If I use your line, that means I'd be putting $180 into the pot and then folding to a guy who has been picking up lots of pot with over-aggressive play. That's not the way I want to play any hand against this type of opponent.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
I prefer a raise preflop. Since you know lag donk will bump it to $20 otherwise, just raise to $10-12 preflop. Has he been reraising people preflop with junk?


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this would have worked. He had reraised with junk but it was only once (maybe twice).

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]

On the other hand, I don't really like 66 as the hand to call him down with, you'll surely get better spots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whether I fold, call, or raise in this hand, that better spot is going to come anyway. So, if a non-folding play is best here, it should be made. Then, you can take advantage of the better spot as well.

[/ QUOTE ] When I looked up, his right arm was extended and his cards apparently face-up in hand or just turned back over. The dealer had his hand extended to block my view of his cards. So, I didn't see anything.

My opponent chekced again for me to see.

The river is: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif4/images/graemlins/spade.gif3/images/graemlins/club.gifK/images/graemlins/heart.gif8/images/graemlins/heart.gif

Your play?

[/ QUOTE ]

There is virtually no doubt now that your opponent does not have a K, given his two river checks and immediate desire to show it down. And he clearly has no monster hand. That doesn't mean that he does not have you beat, however.

You do not make it clear if villain was aware that you didn't see his hand. If villain thought you saw his hand as the rest of the table did, this is a pretty easy push. He will assume you saw his hand and you are trying to get more out of his worse hand. A push here forces him to fold an 8 or a higher PP.

If villain is aware you did not see his hand, um, push anyway? You have the luxury of knowing he has no monster, and is he going to risk getting nearly stacked with a marginal hand? Only if he senses that you're trying to buy it, but I still like the push.

Dynasty, I'd love to hear the results.

[Dynasty]

After my opponents strange river check, I decided to check behind.

He showed A3o and my 66 was good.

I think a good arguement could be made that I played incorrectly on every street.