20-40 stud, call or fold?

[mostsmooth]

4h brings in for 5, everyone folds to you, you call with Q2Q with an Ac the last player yet to act. Ac makes it 20, bring in folds.only the second hand since you sat down and you are familiar with none of the players.
do you call or fold or raise?

[Andy B]

I wouldn't be in this position because I would have completed with a pair of Queens to begin with. Whether or not I fold to a re-raise depends on what I know of the player, but against an unknown player, I call. It just looks like a steal and a re-steal. If he really does have Aces, I can always catch up, and staying with him will help me get a line on his play.

The way you played it, I'd probably call, but honestly, why limp with a pair of Queens?

[banditbdl]

You should have raised when you came in to begin with. Now it is going to be difficult for you to put the Ace on a hand and make the rest of the hand a nightmare. He could have junk, he could have a pocket pair, he could have an ace.

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
You should have raised when you came in to begin with. Now it is going to be difficult for you to put the Ace on a hand and make the rest of the hand a nightmare. He could have junk, he could have a pocket pair, he could have an ace.

[/ QUOTE ]
yeah,i already know this

[rtrombone]

I, too, would have completed with split queens. I'm happy to win just the antes and bring-in with this hand. I'm also happy to win them with split kings. All too often some bullshit happens like somebody making open aces at 5th.

Once you limp, though, and the ace completes, you have to raise. It's just not likely that he has aces. Think--the only people in the pot are the bring-in and a guy who limped with a queen. Why would split aces raise here? Aces are the only premium pair I will slowplay because they absolutely dominate smaller pairs. Does he really stand to make more by completing rather than just limping? If he limps he will likely be heads up with you, as the bring-in almost always folds to a bet at 4th.

I put the guy on a concealed pair, a 3-flush or a hand as weak as (9 T) A. If he 3-bets, now I think maybe he does have aces. I'm still not entirely convinced, though. In my games people will do this with something like (T /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif) A /images/graemlins/club.gif. I may raise him on 4th if he catches a brick and see what he does then.

The problem with calling is you don't know where you're at. When you factor in the possibility that you have the best hand, it's a clear raise.

[SittingBull]

is BASIC strategy in this spot..EVEN in the "little kid's" game(low-limit). U are MOST likely giving a free card to an "A" by NOT raising.
HappyPokering, /images/graemlins/smile.gif
SittingBull
BTW What is your logic for NOT raising??
Just wondering,

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
is BASIC strategy in this spot..EVEN in the "little kid's" game(low-limit). U are MOST likely giving a free card to an "A" by NOT raising.
HappyPokering, /images/graemlins/smile.gif
SittingBull
BTW What is your logic for NOT raising??
Just wondering,


[/ QUOTE ]
who knows, i was tired?

[patrick dicaprio]

it is a difficult situation since you dont have any knowledge of the players. without this knowledge i wouldnt fold. so the question is what is to be gained by raising? if he has aces he wont fold, the bring in is already out and you have to improve. if he has a draw with an ace he wont fold either. so the only situation where you might knock him out is if he is trying to steal or has a hand like three high cards. but if he does have these hands you do well if he calls as long as he doesnt have two overcards, something like AKT. it is also less likely that he is stealing since you are in the pot and are a new player, so he has no knowledge about you either.

i dont see what is to be gained by raising here. if he has a weak hand you want him to continue to bet into you,and if he has a strong hand you are in trouble.

pat

[CJC]

What do you need to raise with?

Perhaps you need to rethink your game before you play 20-40!

CJ

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
it is a difficult situation since you dont have any knowledge of the players. without this knowledge i wouldnt fold. so the question is what is to be gained by raising? if he has aces he wont fold, the bring in is already out and you have to improve. if he has a draw with an ace he wont fold either. so the only situation where you might knock him out is if he is trying to steal or has a hand like three high cards. but if he does have these hands you do well if he calls as long as he doesnt have two overcards, something like AKT. it is also less likely that he is stealing since you are in the pot and are a new player, so he has no knowledge about you either.

i dont see what is to be gained by raising here. if he has a weak hand you want him to continue to bet into you,and if he has a strong hand you are in trouble.

pat

[/ QUOTE ]
this is probably closest to what i was thinking
i make it 40, he should make it 60 or fold, and i dont want either of those situations. or am i crazy?

[rtrombone]

I can see smooth calling with the intention of going upstairs later as a way to extract more money from your opponent.

This is a risky play, though. If the guy really has aces, you're going to lose more. If he doesn't have aces but somehow improves, you're going to lose more. If he's on a semi-steal, he may shut down at 4th and then you lose a bet. If he's a draw, you've made a mistake in not charging him more to draw out.

If he's on a semi-steal or has a 3-flush, he will call a raise at 3rd and probably a bet at 4th. If he fails to improve, he'll fold then. You've gotten two bets from him by raising at 3rd and betting at 4th. Same thing if he has a concealed pair.

If he has aces, maybe he'll 3-bet at 3rd. Maybe he'll raise at 4th. Maybe he'll wait until 5th to raise. But he will also raise you at 4th or 5th if he didn't have aces but somehow improved (made two pair, trips or a flush). In principle, your raise at 3rd announcing your split queens serves as a bluff-stopper. You can more safely fold to a raise later. You have no read on this guy, but he doesn't have one on you, either. In my experience, most people's default game is straightforward play, not fancy bluffing.

This is my gameplan. If you're in favor of just calling at 3rd, what do you do at 4th and 5th? Keep calling and hope he doesn't have aces? In my games, a guy who completes with an ace upcard against the bring-in and one limper will almost never have aces. It just doesn't make sense for split aces to complete. You know the bring-in is going to fold, and the limper will often follow suit.

So maybe you call and pop him on a later street. But for the reasons I've listed above, I think it's better to raise at 3rd. Most people will see 4th for another bet even if they're on a steal, and this is a bet gained. Many players will take one stab at the pot and then not give you any more money. You need to get it from them at 3rd.

And if he has aces, he has aces. But by raising at 3rd you will be more confident in your laydown at a later street. If you just call, how can you be certain you're not laying down the best hand? Calling at 3rd and 4th and folding to a bet at 5th, for example, is a terrible plan IMHO.

[SittingBull]