KK: raise more on flop?

[45suited]

Not a bad beat post. And I know that these idiots would have called any bets apparently. (I'm concerned with playing this hand 'correctly', not asking how I could have avoided this, if that makes sense.) Pushing the flop seems to let them out of making a mistake too easily.

So, my question is, do you like my flop raise? If not, what do you raise to on the flop? PP $22

PartyPoker, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com (http://www.pregopoker.com/hhconv/convert)

UTG (t800)
Hero (t800)
MP1 (t910)
MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t800)
CO+1 (t770)
CO (t800)
Button (t790)
SB (t730)
BB (t800)

Preflop: Hero is in UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG calls t15, <font color="red">Hero raises t70</font>, <font color="gray">MP1 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP2 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP3 folds</font>, <font color="gray">CO+1 folds</font>, CO calls t70, <font color="gray">Button folds</font>, SB calls t60, <font color="gray">BB folds</font>, UTG calls t55

Flop: (t295) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, <font color="red">UTG bets t60</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises t275</font>, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>, SB calls t275, UTG calls t215

Turn: (t1120) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, <font color="red">UTG raises t455 (All-in)</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises t455 (All-in)</font>, <font color="red">SB raises t385 (All-in)</font>

River: (t2415) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)

SB shows [ Ts, Qs ] a pair of fours.
UTG shows [ 3h, 3c ] a straight, two to six.
HERO shows [ Ks, Kc ] two pairs, kings and fours.
UTG wins 140 chips from side pot #1 with a straight, two to six.
UTG wins 2275 chips from the main pot with a straight, two to six.

I push. You will get called anyway

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
I push. You will get called anyway

[/ QUOTE ]

Except I can't know that at the time, because his flop 'bet' of 60 means absolutely nothing. If I KNEW that I'd get called, of course I'd push.

[async]

Personally, I think your play was about optimal.

[Burno]

I don't understand the flop raise. Are you dumping it if an A, 3 or spade hits? It would appear you are committed with this raise.

The chips in the middle represent almost half your stack, and there are a lot of cards you don't want to see on the turn. I don't love the spot I'm in, but I think I push here because to charge the draws enough to make them incorrect to call I will committ myself, so I might as well charge them full price.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand the flop raise. Are you dumping it if an A, 3 or spade hits? It would appear you are committed with this raise.

The chips in the middle represent almost half your stack, and there are a lot of cards you don't want to see on the turn. I don't love the spot I'm in, but I think I push here because to charge the draws enough to make them incorrect to call I will committ myself, so I might as well charge them full price.

[/ QUOTE ]

I looked at the UTG's bet as totally meaningless. Purely a donkey blocking bet. Basically, it told me next to nothing about what he had. And of course, the only other information I had is that the SB had checked and the pot was four handed.

So, I ignored the UTG's bet and proceeded as if it were checked to me. I'm not saying that this was correct, only that this was my thinking. So, if there had been two checks to me, would I push this flop? I don't think so.

Obviously, the reason I posted the hand, though, is because I'm not sure if I played it correctly.

[RobGW]

I don't necessarily think pushing the flop is a bad thing. The pot is big. It would be ok if you pushed and won it. There are several players involved and lots of draws. If they have an overpair, flush draw, or str8 draw they will probably call a push anyways. Obviously you cant fold KK here so I think making them pay the ultimate price is fine. By raising anything less sometimes they can call for implied odds, that is if you aren't willing to fold when it looks like they hit and with this big of a pot and KK I wouldn't even consider that. The way you played it was ok I think without knowing what they had at the time, but pushing is something to think about.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't necessarily think pushing the flop is a bad thing. The pot is big. It would be ok if you pushed and won it. There are several players involved and lots of draws. If they have an overpair, flush draw, or str8 draw they will probably call a push anyways. Obviously you cant fold KK here so I think making them pay the ultimate price is fine. By raising anything less sometimes they can call for implied odds, that is if you aren't willing to fold when it looks like they hit and with this big of a pot and KK I wouldn't even consider that. The way you played it was ok I think without knowing what they had at the time, but pushing is something to think about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the responses guys. Pushing DID cross my mind more than a little bit. But I didn't want to let UTG's weak a$$ blocking bet dictate my play of the hand. However, due to the 3 calls of my pre-flop raise, the pot was very large already, and it is usually my style of play to simply put my chips in and take those pots down.

[swiftrhett]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I think your play was about optimal.

[/ QUOTE ]

[11t]

I'd raise to 350 on the flop, push the turn.

[GtrHtr]

I'll grunch this.

1. I think you played it fine. But you know what my opinion is worth. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

2. I wish you hadn't posted the results, but I'd put one flop caller on a spade draw and the other (UTG) on who knows?

3. UTG raising allin on the turn wouldn't bother me, although his hand is either now on a flush draw with clubs or who knows. I think putting your chips in here is fine, no other options that I can see.

4. To your original question, on the flop after UTG bets t60, I'd push. I think you have the best hand on the flop and I hate the flop creating a lot of outs in a multi-way pot.

Man, I love the 22s, too bad they don't love me back.

[wildzer0]

I've been experimenting with being ridiculously aggressive with big hands. I find I'm getting paid off more often than not. If you raise more preflop, you eliminate the implied odds they have to call with a smaller pocket pair (ie. if CO thinks you have a big pair and you'll get your whole stack in if he makes a set, he's getting the implied odds he needs to call here).

Also, I push the flop, it looks like a semi-bluff and you might get a call from a huge underdog.

[Vuron00]

Your flop bet pretty much committed you and unless you were planning to fold to a turned Ace or Spade, just push the flop.

[wildzer0]

OK, after reading the replies I have another comment, and a further defense for pushing the flop. When you overbet the pot there, many opponents will instantly read you for 2 big unpaired cards trying to steal and will play sheriff with smaller pocket pairs. Bad players love to call overbets with weak hands because they think they're going to catch you bluffing.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, after reading the replies I have another comment, and a further defense for pushing the flop. When you overbet the pot there, many opponents will instantly read you for 2 big unpaired cards trying to steal and will play sheriff with smaller pocket pairs. Bad players love to call overbets with weak hands because they think they're going to catch you bluffing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Believe me, I don't think pushing the flop needs to be defended. I seriously considered it at the time.

But, say UTG had checked. Would this be an open push then on this flop? I just looked at his bet as, "Well, maybe the guy has a couple of overs and whiffed. My hand's okay and I'd really like for him not to bet anything." So I raised instead of pushing. I think I should have either raised a bit more or just pushed. My default play would be to push here.

Since the flop has two of a suit and you have one of those suits, I really like a 350 bet here.

If it had two of a suit which I didnt have I'd instapush.

If it was rainbow I'd bet somewhere around where you did.

[wildzer0]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK, after reading the replies I have another comment, and a further defense for pushing the flop. When you overbet the pot there, many opponents will instantly read you for 2 big unpaired cards trying to steal and will play sheriff with smaller pocket pairs. Bad players love to call overbets with weak hands because they think they're going to catch you bluffing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Believe me, I don't think pushing the flop needs to be defended. I seriously considered it at the time.

But, say UTG had checked. Would this be an open push then on this flop? I just looked at his bet as, "Well, maybe the guy has a couple of overs and whiffed. My hand's okay and I'd really like for him not to bet anything." So I raised instead of pushing. I think I should have either raised a bit more or just pushed. My default play would be to push here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see, we're looking at this in sort of an opposite way. I'm more likely to push after his donk bet because I think a push looks like more of a scared bet. I'm hoping he reads a push here as "He's trying to bully me out of this pot because he thinks I have a better hand then him". I think a pot sized bet looks stronger to your opponents here, especially since you're basically comitted after that. They're more likely to think you have a hand you really want to get your chips in with but you don't want to lose any customers. Or else they're thinking "weee! I've got pocket 3's. That's the nuts!", what do I know? /images/graemlins/cool.gif