Curtains Hand #2

[Mr_J]

I wouldn't really call this 'interesting', but this is an easy push for me. BB needs to be very loose for this not to be a push, and I don't remember him doing anything that would make us put him on such a loose calling range. Maybe missed because of multitabling?

PartyPoker, Big Blind is t200 (5 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com (http://www.pregopoker.com/hhconv/convert)

UTG (t1320)
CO (t1620)
Button (t3770)
Hero (t1440)
BB (t1850)

Preflop: Hero is in SB with 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif
<font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>, <font color="gray">Button folds</font>, <font color="gray">Hero folds</font>

[Elektrik]

In a vacuum this would be a push. Curtains doesn't play in one.

If his opponent calls and the table sees the hand, it can have significant impacts on his opponents future calling standards, particularly at the 215's.

[microbet]

Villian has to be pretty loose to fold here, but if villian puts Curtains on any two and makes the right adjustment it is a fold, but not by a lot.

I've also found that my occassional fold from the SB gets thinking BBs to fold way too much to my pushes in later rounds when the blinds are even higher. Giving up slight present EV for a high probability of still-higher future EV is a good deal.

[Mr_J]

I did consider that, but I'd think that is more of a move to pull in level 4, not level 6. 300 chips is just worth too much here to fold IMO.

[bennies]

[ QUOTE ]
In a vacuum this would be a push. Curtains doesn't play in one.

If his opponent calls and the table sees the hand, it can have significant impacts on his opponents future calling standards, particularly at the 215's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice post. I still assume it's a push though...

[Annulus]

[ QUOTE ]
In a vacuum this would be a push. Curtains doesn't play in one.

If his opponent calls and the table sees the hand, it can have significant impacts on his opponents future calling standards, particularly at the 215's.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you are saying, since Curtains is so worried about his table image he never steals with garbage? I don't buy it.

[Shillx]

People who claim that they don't understand the math and fold in this spot are FOS. You can't just shove a lot more as your position improves or as your get shorter because the calling ranges go up as well. The NE here is like 65% push and 30% call. 94o is one of the last hands that you should be looking to shove here. This is a clear fold.

[Mr_J]

[ QUOTE ]
You can't just shove a lot more as your position improves or as your get shorter because the calling ranges go up as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually you can.

[ QUOTE ]
This is a clear fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

BB has to be calling 27% here for the push to be breakeven (although you lose future FE).

[curtains]

I know that this is +EV, but I just don't believe in constantly moving allin with any 2 in spots like this. If you do it too often it can make sit and gos very hard to play. I play the same opponents too often for me to just blindly move allin with any two from the SB in spots like this.

Of course pushing is fine, and of course I know its anywhere from +.1-.3 EV, but these SB vs BB situations are special IMO and I can't abuse them by just pushing every single time, because once the blinds get this high, its almost always correct to push 100% of the time. I sure as hell notice when others do this, and I suspect others do as well. I mean I will push a lot of hands here, but Im fine with folding 94o.

I'm willing to give up a bit of EV here and there so my image isnt that of a complete maniac whom will constantly push any 2. It can be important when I play in sets where one guy is in 8/10 of my games and another is in 6 and then I can expect the same tomorrow and etc etc.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
People who claim that they don't understand the math and fold in this spot are FOS. You can't just shove a lot more as your position improves or as your get shorter because the calling ranges go up as well. The NE here is like 65% push and 30% call. 94o is one of the last hands that you should be looking to shove here. This is a clear fold.

[/ QUOTE ]


I disagree a lot with this statement and line of reasoning. Its almost surely correct to push in a vacuum against a typical internet opponent, because they will not call enough, nor are they aware of the nash equilibrium. One of the biggest mistakes you can make is to give too much credit to your opponents, which is what you seem to be doing.

However I don't think that its giving too much credit to suspect that theyll notice you push 100% of the time in certain situations. The regulars loosen up on me quite a bit when Ive been pushing like a maniac, I dont want them writing some note next to my name "pushes any 2 with 7x bb from the SB".

Anyway this is a special type of case, in general I will never knowingly pass up EV for a hand. Its just that too many hansd like this can make many current +EV situations turn into neutral or -EV situations in not just this tournament but in many future ones as well.

[Mr_J]

This did cross my mind when I looked at the HH. None of the players where playing at your other tables, but that doesn't mean they weren't regulars.

I considered that maybe it was to have more FE vs the BB later, but didn't think you'd pass up on 300 chips for that, and that it's a move you'd do in level 4 or 5 but not 6.

I also considered that it was for future FE (ie in other games), but like I said none of these guys were at your other tables.

I thought this hand was most probally just something you skipped while multitabling, but I was kinda hoping it was something more than that /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I did notice how many regulars there are.

[ QUOTE ]
I play the same opponents too often for me to just blindly move allin with any two from the SB in spots like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you do change gears though? If you stop the push any 2 behaviour, they then tighten their calling range, allowing you to push any 2 more profitably. When they catch on you tighten up your range. Are the typical players able to notice when you change your pushing ranges?

[curtains]

Honestly probably it was correct to push, despite all the other concerns, but its close IMO. I just try to avoid getting into exploitable situations where I am turning over stuff like 62o, 93o etc...it looks relaly bad. If I push with T7o, it doesnt mean Im pushing any two cards, but when I start pushing 94o, it usually does, and those whom Im playing can make a note about that.

All of this above stuff is probably irrelevant for anything under the $215s, and even in the $215s you dont want to take it too far.