Teaching a friend Hold'em 101 & Basic SnG Strategy from scratch.

[Woolygimp]

Me and a friend are moving into an upscale apartment in a few weeks. We both make a living 8-12 tabling 30/50 SnG's. We previously were playing $400-$1000 NL tables, but moved back to SnG's because of the ease of play and relatively low difficulty. Our third roommate wants to quit his job, and do what we are doing because we are the ones raking in the $$$. He views himself as somewhat intelligent (says he got a 32 on his ACT), but can't comment on his learning ability.

Me and my second friend (Eihli) are somewhat at odds on how to teach our third roomate how to play. I do know that he knows absolutely NOTHING about hold'em.

Our goal: Eventually make him a 7% or more ROI winner on the 30's.

My teaching regiment:

BEFOREanything...
Make him read Ed Millers Beginner's Hold'em Book.
Make him read Hold'em for advanced players by Sklansky.
Make him read Harrington on Hold'em Volume I.
Make him read Harrington on Hold'em Volume II.

Then make him watch us play SnG's while we explain our plays.
Then we watch him play SnG's while we correct his play and explain why.

Then make him reread: Sklansky's Poker for Advanced Players, Harrington on Hold'em Volume I and II.

This process should take 1-2 weeks depending on how fast HE wants to learn.

Eihli's learning regiment is:

Start out letting him watch us play, while at the same time making him read the same books while he's at his job (finishing out the week).

Watch and correct his play while hes finishing the last of the books.

His argument is that the books will mean nothing to him unless he gains experience by playing poker and understanding the concepts in action.



If you had a friend who wanted to learn SnG's which method would you use to teach them, and if you don't like the ones above which way would you go with?

[bones]

It's almost pointless to have him read HPFAP when hes learning to play NL sngs. Theory of poker is much more useful and relevant to what he'll be playing. Include Tournament Poker for adv. players later on, after he's learned the basics of hold em.

Honestly, I think having him read GSIH by miller and working through it with him will be sufficient. He can get experience by watching your HHs in the replayer, either with opps cards off or on and and seeing how the decision making process works.

[Woolygimp]

Well he finished reading GSIH by miller, and I let him view a few of my hands in a 1/2 live bar game the other night to see what he learned. I asked him what to do in EP with my Qd2c and he said ... "hmm maybe call." I then asked, "So why would you call with this?" He then replied, "I don't know maybe for a straight? Q K A 2 3."

So i think you guys are underestimating just how little he knows about poker. He needs to learn the %'s of flopping pairs, two pairs, sets, draws, hitting draws, etc. The only book that really teaches that [censored] is Hold'em poker for advanced players.

I wouldn't make hime read any of that stuff(at least in the beginning) $11 sng's are formulaic sp?. Teach him a basic strategy, get him to buy SNGPT, and then set him loose.
Tell him to analyze his bubble play with SNGPT.
And then if he's really interested in the game, try not to get peaved with his constant onslaught of questions.
And once he's winning, reading the books will cease to be work to him.

And, I think quitting your job,THEN learning to play sng's is a bad strategy.
Shooby.

[bones]

Hold em poker by sklansky has all of that, IIRC. HPFAP is wayyyy too advanced for him and the lines suggested aren't even close to applicable. You can find all of those figures online anyway.

Hey Wooly...
I also am planning on moving into an appartment this summer while supporting myself playing STT. Just wondering what I should be making per hour to do so. How much (if u don't mind me asking) do u make an hour playing STT? I read that you 8 table 30/50s, but which limit do you do more often. What is your ROI and ITM percentages. Finally (sorry about all these Qs) how many hours a week do you play?
Thanks a lot,
kgpoker

[FlyWf]

There is no way someone who has as little understanding of poker as you say he does could possibly, possibly get anything out of HOH, much less HEFAP which is about an entirely different game. Less reading, more playing, more coaching. Your friend has a better plan than you, but the an even better plan is to start him off watching you guys, then coach him in some playmoney games, then coach him in some $1s or $3s or whatever the lowest level that people try to win in, then finally giving him some books. There is no way that someone who thinks Q2 can make a straight will be able to understand HEFAP, much less apply the appropriate limit cash game strategies to no limit tourney play.

[Woolygimp]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Wooly...
I also am planning on moving into an appartment this summer while supporting myself playing STT. Just wondering what I should be making per hour to do so. How much (if u don't mind me asking) do u make an hour playing STT? I read that you 8 table 30/50s, but which limit do you do more often. What is your ROI and ITM percentages. Finally (sorry about all these Qs) how many hours a week do you play?
Thanks a lot,
kgpoker

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm at 19% ROI on the 33's since I've started playing again, but my sample size is small (several hundred SnG's) so I'm probaly experiencing the upside to variance.
So i probaly make $5.25 per SnG at the 30's and play 10 an hour on average so about $50 an hour approx. I prefer the 30's to the 50's (easier, faster, and not much less money).

I made much more playing NL cash, about 7PTBB/100 (14 big blinds/100)@ 200/400 NL so, but it required alot more thought. SnG's are much easier to MT, I could only play 4-6 NL tables at a time even though the $/hour was much higher.

[ QUOTE ]
What is his screen name? In fact, what are your screen names? I'd consider moving down to the 50s to play people like you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the idiotic comment. Even if I was a marginal player you would take a hit to your ROI seeking out and playing "marginal" players, when you could make much more seeking out "lesser than marginal players".

[ QUOTE ]
There is no way someone who has as little understanding of poker as you say he does could possibly, possibly get anything out of HOH, much less HEFAP which is about an entirely different game. Less reading, more playing, more coaching. Your friend has a better plan than you, but the an even better plan is to start him off watching you guys, then coach him in some playmoney games, then coach him in some $1s or $3s or whatever the lowest level that people try to win in, then finally giving him some books. There is no way that someone who thinks Q2 can make a straight will be able to understand HEFAP, much less apply the appropriate limit cash game strategies to no limit tourney play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. ^^^

[Woolygimp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is no way someone who has as little understanding of poker as you say he does could possibly, possibly get anything out of HOH, much less HEFAP which is about an entirely different game. Less reading, more playing, more coaching. Your friend has a better plan than you, but the an even better plan is to start him off watching you guys, then coach him in some playmoney games, then coach him in some $1s or $3s or whatever the lowest level that people try to win in, then finally giving him some books. There is no way that someone who thinks Q2 can make a straight will be able to understand HEFAP, much less apply the appropriate limit cash game strategies to no limit tourney play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. ^^^

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason I wanted him to read HEFAP is because i want to build a foundation for him. I want to teach him to think for himself and understand the concepts behind Holdem. HEFAP should be one of the latter books he reads, but he needs to understand the concepts within it. I am a NL player (played alot of NL games with a very high PTBB/100 and I find HEFAP one of the best books out there (even for NL play).

[Shilly]

I think you're expecting wayyyyyy too much out of him too fast. It's easy for players like us that have a lot of experience to underestimate the value of that experience, because even complex situations are basically hardwired into our brains and become automatic--while even the most mundane spots, like holding Q2o UTG, are a thought-provoking situation for a novice. Trying to jam tons of information into his brain isn't going to work at all, and he must understand that becoming a winning player isn't going to happen overnight. Give him a beginner's book (I haven't read it, but I'm sure GSIH is perfect) and let him fool around a bit on his own so that he can get a feel for the game before you start to teach him the more advanced concepts.

I think playing with your friend in a small homegame would be an excellent way to teach him the basics such as position, starting hand requirements, the gap concept, etc. Then you could have him read some of the more advanced text that you suggest. But I think the following link provides a ton of SnG specific literature that is just not found in most hold'em books.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...&PHPSESSID= (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=singletable&Number=191873 5&fpart=&PHPSESSID=)

[an even better plan is to start him off watching you guys, then coach him in some playmoney games, then coach him in some $1s or $3s or whatever the lowest level that people try to win in, then finally giving him some books.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about other people, but I learn by doing. I think your friend needs to jump into some play money tables with you over his shoulder before he reads anything. Let him play some games, make mistakes, then walk through his thought process and add information along the way.

Give him two weeks of playing around before starting him on a beginner's book. It will help him visualize the concepts. Then have him both read and play every day while you continue to coach.

Good luck. You might end up being very frustrated, though.

[downtown]

I am also starting coaching one of my friends. He is intelligent, likes to play, has played a bunch of 2/4 in Vegas, and has the right mindset.

The only problem is, he said he has a hard time telling when a possible straight is out. /images/graemlins/ooo.gif /images/graemlins/ooo.gif /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

I sent him back to the play money tables to practice reading the board *before* I even gave him his first book. I think as experienced players we take this skill for granted, whereas in reality it probably took tens of thousands of hands before you could automatically recognize every situation.

[11t]

Why would you have him read hold em for advanced players if he doesn't know how to play poker?

Start off with Harrington on Holdem 1, 2 then go to TPFAP, then Super System 2 and TTOP

I would start him off watching maybe 10-20 of your games, have him read Small Stakes Hold'em by Ed Miller just to learn the basics about HE in general. I started off with that book and I think it really dumbs it down for the total newbs. Then let him lose his first 5-10 SNGs trying to apply those strategies before he realizes it doesn't work. And THEN let him watch another 20 or 30 of your games. Another good thing to do is go over to www.tightpoker.com (http://www.tightpoker.com) and download the replayer. The guy also posted something like 40-50 $11 SNGs (in the HH Download section) where his play is almost flawless. Have him watch those also. Have him then read HOH1, play some more, watch more, read more, and he should be set after about 100 or so SNGs. Just tell him not to rush it in the beginning or he'll find himself out of money really fast.

[ QUOTE ]
I asked him what to do in EP with my Qd2c and he said ... "hmm maybe call." I then asked, "So why would you call with this?" He then replied, "I don't know maybe for a straight? Q K A 2 3."



[/ QUOTE ]

I think you need to help him find another job or get him to keep his current one. That's not meant to be rude, but there is no reason to quit a job to learn how to play a game when he has little to no concept of how to win. I think he could find a job where he works 35-40 hours a week with little stress and do his SnG project at night. I started at play money tables practicing playing tight. I then deposited 50 bucks (any amount he's comfortable with) and tried to make something happen at 5.50 SnGs. Now I'm happy.

I think that having him read HOH and any other advanced book is a little too quick. I think you have him play some, read some, play some, watch some, read some.

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]



If you had a friend who wanted to learn SnG's which method would you use to teach them, and if you don't like the ones above which way would you go with?

[/ QUOTE ]

Everything in this post is a road map to disaster. Your friend is soon going to be unemployed and broke and living off you two and then you can kick him out.

I would tell a friend to keep his job and learn to play poker. Read GSHE and start playing micro limit games. Read GSHE again. Play some more. Read SSHE. Play a lot more. Read SSHE again. Don't even think about NL until he can consistently beat $1/2 limit at Party. Then start with coaching in ABC SnG strategy, and the lowest buy-in SnGs you can find. He is not going to be ready for HPFAAP, HOH, etc., until he reaches this point.

[runner4life7]

Im currently teaching my friend but he has some idea how to play holdem. First thing I did is have him watch some of my old HHs with me and go over simple stuff just to get the idea of folding a lot early, and pushing later. Then I started playing some with him watching and explaining moves. Then would have say what he would do first, now he plays while I watch and give any comments I have at the 10s. 14 down, up $50 /images/graemlins/smile.gif. But I think all those books are a waste of time for this.

Edit to add more on how I dont think it is necessary to read like 5-10 books to play sngs. I dont know if I have read a full one yet.

[playtitleist]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I asked him what to do in EP with my Qd2c and he said ... "hmm maybe call." I then asked, "So why would you call with this?" He then replied, "I don't know maybe for a straight? Q K A 2 3."



[/ QUOTE ]

I think you need to help him find another job or get him to keep his current one. That's not meant to be rude, but there is no reason to quit a job to learn how to play a game when he has little to no concept of how to win. I think he could find a job where he works 35-40 hours a week with little stress and do his SnG project at night. I started at play money tables practicing playing tight. I then deposited 50 bucks (any amount he's comfortable with) and tried to make something happen at 5.50 SnGs. Now I'm happy.

I think that having him read HOH and any other advanced book is a little too quick. I think you have him play some, read some, play some, watch some, read some.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish somebody would have given me some advise like this when I decided to quit my job and become a professional golfer. It sucked when I found out 3 was a better score than 5...

Okay, I didn't actually do this. And neither should he.

Before he reads any of those books, he should read the little hand-rank chart that comes in the Bicycle deck. Seriously, I am not being a dick. He needs to start by learning how poker is played, not start to learn how to play poker.

[McMelchior]

What makes for a good learning strategy completely hinges on how your friend is wired.

People are way more different in what way they can learn and what kind of education/training they benefit from than most are aware of.

Take for instance learning to read. Some kids pick it up like in no time. I (for instance) enjoyed reading John Steinbeck's novels after only 7 month of school. That certainly doesn't mean I was a prodegy (I have been playing NLHE tournaments daily for 5 years now, and I'm still far less than proficient). Reading was just easy for me to pick up. Other kids still had a hard time spelling their way through "age-appropriate" material in 3rd grade - not because they were dyslexic, but because the education program didn't fit their needs well.

Some people learn best by reading and appropriating the basis foundation of a subject before they venture into "reality". Other's gain nothing from it, but can only advance via a hands-on strategy (your friend sounds a little like that).

Most people learn a new field of practice through heuristics: Play these hands under these conditions, never fold AA preflop, always raise TPTK if there's a draw on the board etc. Learning the heuristics by heart makes it possible for them to practice without having their butts handed to them. When the heuristics have become second nature it's time then to challenge them with the underlying assumptions and theories. Until then these are of little value.

Generally an apprentice-model with reflection in action provides for the most efficient form of learning. Sit with your friend while he plays (not you, he'll gain little from that because of the enourmous gap between your understandings) and discuss the hands as they unfold. Or spend time going over the HHs after the fact.

If you want to start your friend out with a book I suggest a real beginner: Lee Jones Winning LLHE. It contains exactly the kind of heuristics that your friend can learn by heart in an afternoon and apply with enough success to continue being motivated (this is important - you need to be motivated to learn, and without frequent success the motivation will wane).

Best,

McMelchior (Johan)

[microbet]

One of the things that made sure I didn't miss possible hands was my home game in high school where we played if someone said they had one hand, but really had a better one, it was what they said that counted, until after the hand when the money went somewhere else and then all of us made fun of them for about a year.

[splashpot]

You should definately convince him to keep his job. Sure, you can teach him poker on the side and see if he has a real interest/passion for it, but someone who wants to quit his job just because he sees someone else making a lot of money doing it most likely won't be successful.

Most people who are successful at poker don't realize that they probably have a natural talent for it. The myth that "any moron could make lots of money at poker if they read a couple of books" is not true.

So go ahead and introduce him to the game and see if he picks it up quickly, but you can't assume that any old person will be able to win at poker. It would be like me quitting my job to make a living in the stock market just because I saw some rich stockbroker.

[Eihli]

Getting a job down here that pays $10+/hr has been as easy as walking outside your front door ever since the hurricane hit, so if playing poker doesn't work it's not like he'll have a hard time finding something better than where he was working at.

He won't be playing on his own for months to come. He'll be playing right next to me so I'll basically be 16 tabling through him.