I think this is right but scuba disagrees

[elcheapo]

Game No : 3272946676
***** Hand History for Game 3272946676 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:18664529 Level:6 Blinds(100/200) - Wednesday, December 28, 00:51:23 EDT 2005
Table Table 68111 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: elcheapo23 ( $1617 )
Seat 3: hueys46 ( $4540 )
Seat 5: wnlake5 ( $930 )
Seat 10: Scuba_Chuck ( $913 )
Trny:18664529 Level:6
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to elcheapo23 [ Kh 3d ]
>You have options at Table 66918 Table!.
hueys46 folds.
wnlake5 folds.
Scuba_Chuck is all-In [813]
elcheapo23 calls [713].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9d, Jd, Th ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7s ]
** Dealing River ** [ Jh ]
Scuba_Chuck shows [ Ts, Td ] a full house, Tens full of jacks.
elcheapo23 shows [ Kh, 3d ] a pair of jacks.
Scuba_Chuck wins 1826 chips from the main pot with a full house, Tens full of jacks.
>You have options at Table 66918 Table!.
Game #3272948674 starts.

713 to win 1826 and scuba needs to push here. This is a nobrainer and yet he berates me for this call.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

713 to win 1826 and scuba needs to push here. This is a nobrainer and yet he berates me for this call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, take the 713 back out of that 1826. You're being laid 1113:713, which isn't nearly as attractive. Add in the other severe shorty, and I'm pretty sure your crappy K isn't going to perform well enough to make calling here good. So I think this is poor.

EDIT: I'll preempt curtains and point out that this is an SNGPT question if there ever was one. If you don't have it, this isn't a very tough situation to ICM, but I'm lazy and tend to answer based on my intuitions from the time when I actually looked at these kind of things. Serious pushbot minutia aren't so important in regular Stars STT's, at least at low buyins.

[kyro]

I call this in a flash.

[GtrHtr]

EZ fold. Fishy call.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
713 to win 1826 and scuba needs to push here. This is a nobrainer and yet he berates me for this call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except it's not 713 to win 1826. It's 1113 in the pot, 713 to call. You're kinda calculating winning your 'calling' chips back into the equation. You're getting 1.56:1 here, not 1826:713 as you seem to be implying.

[elcheapo]

If I fold I'm still midlevel stack. If shortstack had 500 or 600 then the fold would be easier but I think this is the right call because if I'm in scuba's shoes you don't even look at your cards and push

[GtrHtr]

Based on what? What a joke.

[Pasterbator]

I actually see 713 to win 1113 (you cant count the money you havent put in the middle yet) I don't like the call. While he's probably pushing with a very wide range, K3o is defintiely behind.

ICM says : If he's pushing as many as 75% of hands, its still -EV to call with K3o.

[elcheapo]

what if its 90%

[Pasterbator]

LOOKS LIKE I AM 2 MINUTES TOO LATE.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Based on what? What a joke.

[/ QUOTE ]

Easy there GtrHtr. I think I'd fold, but calling is hardly ridiculous. After all, against many players, K high is likely the better hand. And you're getting decent odds.

[Pasterbator]

If he is infact pushing 90% of hands, its slighty +EV to make the call. But its still something i will not be doing.

[ZeroPointMachine]

If you know he is pushing any 2 you should be calling around top 50%.

Of course, if he knows you think he will push any 2 and will call with top 50%, he should only push about the top 30%.

The difference between pushing any 2 and pushing top 30% is the reason you should never let a 2+2er know you are one.

[GtrHtr]

haha, ur right, dude just gets under my skin. EZ fold tho

[elcheapo]

I say he pushes any two and even at top 75% its marginally bad. I've folded my blind more than my share this game and scuba knows pushbot I'd assume so this is at worst a below average call.

[GtrHtr]

Dude, you are (were) 2d stack. Horrible call.

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
Based on what? What a joke.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. Instead of doing the math myself, I took his word for what the ratio was. I was way wrong apparently. Whoops.

[GtrHtr]

good man, gl in miami, sorry to be so harsh.

[elcheapo]

thats alot of assumptions for a pretty dire situation and he may not know I'm a 2+2er before this hand

[ZeroPointMachine]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude, you are (were) 2d stack. Horrible call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Scuba's range is any two. Calling an any 2 range with K3o is +1.1% $EV. Still horrible?

[elcheapo]

I had 16 and 2 other stacks had around 10. If I had 2k or they had less then I would fold. i thought the percentages were on my side and I was maybe marginally wrong.

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
good man, gl in miami, sorry to be so harsh.

[/ QUOTE ]

please. i've had citanul rip into me before. i even insulted SNCB knowing his cronies would do their damndest to chase me out of town and make my life a living hell. I can handle harsh. Especially on the internet, where I don't have to back up my words with my 150 pound rail for a body.

[curtains]

DELETED - MISREAD THE HH. I suggested calling if the BB was the other shortstack, which I still beleive is clearly correct.

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dude, you are (were) 2d stack. Horrible call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Scuba's range is any two. Calling an any 2 range with K3o is +1.1% $EV. Still horrible?

[/ QUOTE ]

for sure horrible call. If he had 4000 chips easy call. Are you serious?

[elcheapo]

My math was right- just probably different then what you use. I include the final pot

[curtains]

I take back everything I said btw...I thought the hero was the other short stack.. Now I have to reexamine. I believe I'd lean towards folding now, as SB should be tighter in this situation.

[Pasterbator]

[ QUOTE ]
Its a pretty easy call IMO against most decent players. To be honest I would never dream of folding in this spot in a $215. People who can't make ugly looking calls like this are going to have problems winning at sit and gos.

[/ QUOTE ]

ugh. i need to get better at SNGs.

[yvesaint]

i think i fold here, but call with Ax and most pockets 44+ this is from my first instinct, will check numbers later ....is this bad?

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
good man, gl in miami, sorry to be so harsh.

[/ QUOTE ]

please. i've had citanul rip into me before. i even insulted SNCB knowing his cronies would do their damndest to chase me out of town and make my life a living hell. I can handle harsh. Especially on the internet, where I don't have to back up my words with my 150 pound rail for a body.

[/ QUOTE ]

haha, I'm starting to like you.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Its a pretty easy call IMO against most decent players. To be honest I would never dream of folding in this spot in a $215. People who can't make ugly looking calls like this are going to have problems winning at sit and gos.

[/ QUOTE ]

ugh. i need to get better at SNGs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please read my follow up post. I misread the HH.

[Pasterbator]

[ QUOTE ]

I take back everything I said btw...I thought the hero was the other short stack.. Now I have to reexamine. I believe I'd lean towards folding now, as SB should be tighter in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

HOORAY. I thought i had to relearn everything about SNGs. My stupid 324923 buyin downswing is making me read too much into everything.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
Its a pretty easy call IMO against most decent players. To be honest I would never dream of folding in this spot in a $215. People who can't make ugly looking calls like this are going to have problems winning at sit and gos.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well the equilibrium here is something like 61%/31%, so I guess by a "decent" player you mean someone who will push more than is game-theory optimal because he expects BB to fold too much?

[elcheapo]

so this is a call with 2 paints, Ax or any pair?? If the stacks were reversed I call pretty quickly too.

[curtains]

Ok time to delete my ORIGINAL POST

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]

I take back everything I said btw...I thought the hero was the other short stack.. Now I have to reexamine. I believe I'd lean towards folding now, as SB should be tighter in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats good since I originally quoted you in my last reply. Didn't want to put words in your mouth though.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok time to delete my ORIGINAL POST

[/ QUOTE ]

sry, you posted follow-up while I was writing my post. folding as the other short stack would be silly.

[Pasterbator]

[ QUOTE ]
Please read my follow up post. I misread the HH.

[/ QUOTE ]

All over it. I'm a whole step ahead (or behind) you.

[ZeroPointMachine]

[ QUOTE ]

I take back everything I said btw...I thought the hero was the other short stack.. Now I have to reexamine. I believe I'd lean towards folding now, as SB should be tighter in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should SB be tighter? What calling range are you assuming Scuba will put BB on?

[jeffraider]

wtf is scuba doing berating bad players!?!!?

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I take back everything I said btw...I thought the hero was the other short stack.. Now I have to reexamine. I believe I'd lean towards folding now, as SB should be tighter in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should SB be tighter? What calling range are you assuming Scuba will put BB on?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cos of the other short stack.

I am thinking Scuba would put BB on a 32-38%ish calling range if BB seems decent.

[elcheapo]

nice response (18% ROI after 3000 33's)

[ZeroPointMachine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I take back everything I said btw...I thought the hero was the other short stack.. Now I have to reexamine. I believe I'd lean towards folding now, as SB should be tighter in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should SB be tighter? What calling range are you assuming Scuba will put BB on?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cos of the other short stack.

I am thinking Scuba would put BB on a 32-38%ish calling range if BB seems decent.

[/ QUOTE ]

and 39% happens to include K3o.....

[jeffraider]

[ QUOTE ]
nice response (18% ROI after 3000 33's)

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry man but how do you not know how to calculate pot odds after 3000 SNGs?

Also, it was more of a general comment, none of us here should ever berate anyone for what they consider a bad play.

[ZeroPointMachine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok time to delete my ORIGINAL POST

[/ QUOTE ]

sry, you posted follow-up while I was writing my post. folding as the other short stack would be silly.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I call BS!!!

Switch the stacks and run the numbers both ways. Any range that you put SB pushing, the call is going to be more +$EV with the larger stack.

I'm really not sure how the assumption that BB will call with such a large range developed. If I posted this hand and asked what range I should push into average 33 players I don't think anybody would be quoting equilibrium percentages. The fact that these players fold too many hands is the reason they are so exploitable.

[curtains]

zeropointmachine, the thing is that in general the SB will be pushing less from the SB when there is another shortstack outside of the blinds, whereas when the main opponent is in the BB, many will push 100% of the time.

I definitely believe its correct to call as the shortstack from the BB but correct to fold as the 2nd stack in the BB.

Yes its true that any range you put for the SB it will be SLIGHTLY more +EV to call K3o as the big stack, my whole point is that the SB will push signifigantly less when its the big stack in the BB, at least this is what my estimate would be.

[ZeroPointMachine]

[ QUOTE ]
zeropointmachine, the thing is that in general the SB will be pushing less from the SB when there is another shortstack outside of the blinds, whereas when the main opponent is in the BB, many will push 100% of the time.

I definitely believe its correct to call as the shortstack from the BB but correct to fold as the 2nd stack in the BB.

Yes its true that any range you put for the SB it will be SLIGHTLY more +EV to call K3o as the big stack, my whole point is that the SB will push signifigantly less when its the big stack in the BB, at least this is what my estimate would be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, maybe I'm letting SNGPT presets screw with my thinking here. I'm can see stretching the calling range of a comfortable big stack and a desperate small stack, but I'm not as comfortable stretching for a middle stack that would become the small stack if he loses.

I just think there was a leap of logic in this hand that assumed both players were playing perfectly and assuming that their opponents were playing perfectly.

Obviosly, against an unknown I would not call here.

However, I would never put an average (or even "decent") player on a calling range that would keep me from pushing at least 70% from the SB here.

If I knew he knew that I knew that he knew it becomes a heads-up equilibrium problem. But I didn't grasp that from the original post.

[elcheapo]

you calculate odds differently than me. If we get the same result wtf is the problem.

SBGPT says that for this call to be +EV, SB needs to be pushing 65% of hands. The kicker is significant -- K8o is a +EV call when SB is pushing 45%.

Putting the other short stack in the BB, makes this a +EV call when SB is pushing 68%.

I'll leave it to others to speculate on how often SB will be pushing under each scenario.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
wtf is scuba doing berating bad players !?!!?

[/ QUOTE ]

Caught me.

#Game No : 3272946676
***** Hand History for Game 3272946676 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:18664529 Level:6 Blinds(100/200) - Wednesday, December 28, 00:46:12 EDT 2005
Table Table 68111 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: elcheapo23 ( $1617 )
Seat 3: hueys46 ( $4540 )
Seat 5: wnlake5 ( $930 )
Seat 10: Scuba_Chuck ( $913 )
Trny:18664529 Level:6
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ Ts Td ]
hueys46 folds.
>You have options at Table 67385 Table!.
wnlake5 folds.
Scuba_Chuck is all-In [813]
>You have options at Table 67841 Table!.
elcheapo23 calls [713].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9d, Jd, Th ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7s ]
** Dealing River ** [ Jh ]
Scuba_Chuck shows [ Ts, Td ] a full house, Tens full of jacks.
elcheapo23 shows [ Kh, 3d ] a pair of jacks.
Scuba_Chuck wins 1826 chips from the main pot with a full house, Tens full of jacks.
Game #3272948674 starts.

#Game No : 3272948674
***** Hand History for Game 3272948674 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:18664529 Level:7 Blinds(150/300) - Wednesday, December 28, 00:46:35 EDT 2005
Table Table 68111 (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: elcheapo23 ( $704 )
Seat 3: hueys46 ( $4540 )
Seat 5: wnlake5 ( $930 )
Seat 10: Scuba_Chuck ( $1826 )
Trny:18664529 Level:7
Blinds(150/300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ 9s 7d ]
>You have options at Table 67841 Table!.
>You have options at Table 67385 Table!.
wnlake5 folds.
Scuba_Chuck folds.
elcheapo23 folds.
hueys46 shows [ 5h, 8c ] high card eight.
hueys46 wins 450 chips from the main pot with high card eight.
nice call
Game #3272949770 starts.

#Game No : 3272949770
***** Hand History for Game 3272949770 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:18664529 Level:7 Blinds(150/300) - Wednesday, December 28, 00:46:47 EDT 2005
Table Table 68111 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: elcheapo23 ( $554 )
Seat 3: hueys46 ( $4690 )
Seat 5: wnlake5 ( $930 )
Seat 10: Scuba_Chuck ( $1826 )
Trny:18664529 Level:7
Blinds(150/300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ Jh 3h ]
elcheapo23: good timing
Scuba_Chuck folds.
BLACKJACK MASTERS!
*** TOP 21 PLAYERS! ***
Win a $5,800 cruise package!
Dec 23, 2005 to Jan 12, 2006
>You have options at Table 67385 Table!.
elcheapo23 folds.
>You have options at Table 67841 Table!.
hueys46 folds.
wnlake5 does not show cards.
wnlake5 wins 450 chips
Game #3272951852 starts.

#Game No : 3272951852
***** Hand History for Game 3272951852 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:18664529 Level:7 Blinds(150/300) - Wednesday, December 28, 00:47:10 EDT 2005
Table Table 68111 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: elcheapo23 ( $554 )
Seat 3: hueys46 ( $4540 )
Seat 5: wnlake5 ( $1080 )
Seat 10: Scuba_Chuck ( $1826 )
Trny:18664529 Level:7
Blinds(150/300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ 5c As ]
elcheapo23: your on 2+2 and you know that call is right
>You have options at Table 67385 Table!.
>You have options at Table 67841 Table!.
elcheapo23 folds.
>You have options at Table 67841 Table!.
hueys46 folds.
>You have options at Table 67385 Table!.
wnlake5 raises [450].
Scuba_Chuck folds.
wnlake5 does not show cards.
wnlake5 wins 900 chips
Game #3272953331 starts.

#Game No : 3272953331
***** Hand History for Game 3272953331 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:18664529 Level:7 Blinds(150/300) - Wednesday, December 28, 00:47:28 EDT 2005
Table Table 68111 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: elcheapo23 ( $554 )
Seat 3: hueys46 ( $4540 )
Seat 5: wnlake5 ( $1380 )
Seat 10: Scuba_Chuck ( $1526 )
Trny:18664529 Level:7
Blinds(150/300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ Js Kc ]
Scuba_Chuck: right and then wrong
hueys46 raises [600].
wnlake5 folds.
Scuba_Chuck folds.
elcheapo23 is all-In [254]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3h, 2d, Jh ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qd ]
** Dealing River ** [ 4s ]
hueys46 shows [ 5d, 5s ] a pair of fives.
elcheapo23 shows [ 7s, 5c ] high card queen.
hueys46 wins 46 chips from side pot #1 with a pair of fives.
hueys46 wins 1258 chips from the main pot with a pair of fives.
elcheapo23 finished in fourth place.
elcheapo23 has left the table.
Game #3272954906 starts.

[GtrHtr]

thats harsh, lol. Good job on the OP naming 2+2. well done on that.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
thats alot of assumptions for a pretty dire situation and he may not know I'm a 2+2er before this hand

[/ QUOTE ]

BTW, I had in my notes that I was guessing you were a 2er, but then this hand happened earlier in the night, and I removed you from the thought 2er list.

Since you're calling me out, what are your thoughts on this call?

#Game No : 3272540580
***** Hand History for Game 3272540580 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:18662326 Level:5 Blinds(75/150) - Tuesday, December 27, 23:34:33 EDT 2005
Table Table 68233 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 6: Scuba_Chuck ( $840 )
Seat 9: Adversarian ( $1270 )
Seat 10: elcheapo23 ( $1535 )
Seat 4: f15smuggler ( $2220 )
Seat 3: stang4601 ( $1195 )
Seat 8: beer4me182 ( $940 )
Trny:18662326 Level:5
Blinds(75/150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ Ad Qs ]
stang4601 folds.
f15smuggler folds.
Scuba_Chuck is all-In [840]
beer4me182 folds.
Adversarian folds.
elcheapo23 calls [690].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Tc, Ac, 2h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 6d ]
** Dealing River ** [ Ts ]
elcheapo23 shows [ 2d, 2c ] a full house, Twos full of tens.
Scuba_Chuck shows [ Ad, Qs ] two pairs, aces and tens.
elcheapo23 wins 1755 chips from the main pot with a full house, Twos full of tens.
Scuba_Chuck finished in sixth place.
Scuba_Chuck has left the table.
Game #3272543727 starts.

[Pasterbator]

ZINGER. I pretty much hate it.

[The Yugoslavian]

op,
Scuba just pwn3d you?!?!

Yikes!

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Yugoslav

[GtrHtr]

shnapppppp!!!

[yvesaint]

[ QUOTE ]
op,
Scuba just pwn3d you?!?!

Yikes!

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

[curtains]

I think the call with 22 is clearly correct. At least Im sure its +EV against Scubas range.

[Nick M]

I think the most important part of Grumps post is when he explains how you should calculate the pot odds. If your not calling for pot odds in this BORDERLINE situation, than what are you calling for???? So I think the fact that you have the pot odds all wrong, makes this even more of an obviously mistake.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I take back everything I said btw...I thought the hero was the other short stack.. Now I have to reexamine. I believe I'd lean towards folding now, as SB should be tighter in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should SB be tighter? What calling range are you assuming Scuba will put BB on?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cos of the other short stack.

I am thinking Scuba would put BB on a 32-38%ish calling range if BB seems decent.

[/ QUOTE ]

and 39% happens to include K3o.....

[/ QUOTE ]

right, so SB has to be tighter.

I understand Scuba's range is probably pretty wide and the blinds provide a nice overlay for a coinflip, but it's still hard for me to grasp that calling here with 2's is correct.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand Scuba's range is probably pretty wide and the blinds provide a nice overlay for a coinflip, but it's still hard for me to grasp that calling here with 2's is correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not, Curtains is joking.

[curtains]

Are you kidding? Scuba just use SNGPT, its slightly +EV against almost any reasonable range you might be using with under 6x BB on the cutoff.

in the BB w/ PP when losing will leave you with FE and winning will make you chip leader.. I think its a close call I would make most of the time.