Ashamed to Post This...

[CMangano]

Here is a hand from a 3/6 game on Party today. The game is pretty typical, not the loose fish-fests that used to be on Party. 9 people are in the game.

I am in MP and get A/images/graemlins/heart.gifK/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. It's folded to me and I raise. The button is a calling station and calls. The SB is a bad player and also calls. The BB is a good player and reraises me. I just call as do the button and SB. 4 to the flop for 6BB's.

Flop comes Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif. Ugh, not a great flop for me. I decide I am going to fold as soon as the BB bets. The SB checks, then the BB checks! I check behind him hoping for a free card, but the button bets. The SB and BB call. I am closing the action for 1 sb and call with my gutshot straight, backdoor flush (I don't want to hit one of my overcards since it makes a straight very possible). Thoughts on the call here? 4 to the turn for 8BB's.

Turn comes 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif [Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif]. Again, it is checked around to the button who bets. Both blinds call, and I just call. Ugh, what a horrible play. I really think I should have either bet out here or raised, I think calling was a bad play. I had 12 outs to the nuts (9 hearts and 3 jacks), 10 outs if someone has the flush, which means at worst I am a 2.5:1 dog. Thoughts on this? 4 to the river for 12BB's.

River brings the sweet 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif [5/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif]. Well, I am either gonna lose to a straight flush or I am winning this thing. It is checked to me and this time I bet. That fourth heart is gonna scare anyone without a heart, so I figure I can't rely on the button to come out betting again. The button calls and the blinds fold. Thoughts on betting out here?

I think I made a few mistakes on this hand, would like to hear what others think.

[dirty_dan]

How do you figure 10 outs if someone has a made flush on the turn? Your straight outs are no longer good and 2 of your hearts are in the other guys hand. You're down to 7 outs. However, I can't see anyone else with a flush at that point. Button is calling station and probably wouldn't have bet the flop with a draw. If either of the blinds made the flush they probably would have bet out or checkraised, but they both just called the button bet. So I think all 12 of your outs are good. You're a bit less than 3-1 to hit and I don't think those guys are going to fold for one more bet. Go ahead and raise when it comes back to you on the turn.

[Homer]

I decide I am going to fold as soon as the BB bets.

Folding here is not routine getting 13:1 with a gutshot straight draw, a backdoor flush draw and two overcards (I realize these may be no good).

The SB checks, then the BB checks.

Smells like a flopped set of Queens or another AK. A weak player might check something like JJ, but then again a weak player wouldn't raise JJ out of the BB.

Thoughts on the call here?

Easy call closing the action, getting 15:1.

Ugh, what a horrible play. I really think I should have either bet out here or raised, I think calling was a bad play. I had 12 outs to the nuts (9 hearts and 3 jacks), 10 outs if someone has the flush, which means at worst I am a 2.5:1 dog. Thoughts on this? 4 to the river for 12BB's.

Why is calling a bad play? Looks like you have 3 outs to a chop with a non-heart Jack, and 8 heart outs, which means you have 10.5 outs in all. This makes you around a 3.5:1 dog (where did you get 2.5:1), which means with three opponents you aren't getting value on the raise.

River brings the sweet 6 [5 Q T 7]. Well, I am either gonna lose to a straight flush or I am winning this thing. It is checked to me and this time I bet. That fourth heart is gonna scare anyone without a heart, so I figure I can't rely on the button to come out betting again. The button calls and the blinds fold. Thoughts on betting out here?

Betting out is the correct play for the reasons you stated.

I think I made a few mistakes on this hand, would like to hear what others think.

I think you played it fine.

-- Homer

[rkiray]

Yeah,

You made a few mistakes. The biggest is even considering folding this on the flop for one bet. Before this, given the field you describe, I definitely cap the flop. You have an excellent hand and will have position on the other aggresive player throughout the hand. IN case you didn't notice, you had two overcards, a gutshot and the nuts backdoor flush draw, yeah, it might not be the flop of your dreams, but it's above average. I would bet this flop in a second if it's checked to me. I would be happy to hit my overcards until someone proves to me overwise.

You are correct about the turn. Bet it every time.

The river, I can't believe you are even thinking about a straight flush. They are extremely rare. I don't even think about them until you are up to 3 bets. I once had KKKK and lost to a royal flush. We went to six bets before I called. The dealer knew I was a good player and we get along well. She asked me why I didn't slow down sooner. I said I would be ashamed of myself if I didn't lose alot of money in that hand. And I'd be happy to 5 bet a 4 of kind on the river all night if she would just be so kind as to deal me a few more. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[JohnShaft]

I don't know Rick. I sorta agree with Homer who (I think) states that the actions on every street were correct (though the indecisiveness about them wasn't).

Folding on the flop is wrong. I'd rather bet than fold for sure. I would have capped preflop though with at least one other loose hand in there.

I don't like betting the turn.
Given the board texture, the calling station after you whose shown he has caught some of the flop, I just don't think you are folding the hands that you are drawing against here (OR on the river, to another bet). And you aren't getting value on the bet.
You get much more value playing it as you did, as I doubt all three would still be in for the river if you had bet (but you'd still be behind).

And ignore the straight flush possibility as Rick said. I put in 4 bets here, I just don't give a [censored] if someone has a 2 card straight flush (given the way many people will overbet with a one card flush).

What would be your case for betting the turn?
And if you miss do you think about betting the river?

[Ed Miller]

Your biggest mistake is looking at that flop, looking at that pot, and then deciding to fold.

[rkiray]

Hi John,

Your post has me a bit confused. You say Homer is correct that he played every street correctly. But you agree he should have capped preflop and betting the flop is better than folding (or I may be misreading your post and you are saying that you want one more weak player in). It looks like you disagree with me only on the turn.

[rkiray]

Sorry for two posts but I had to go back and review the post to remember why I would bet the turn. It's simple I have an A high four flush. I pretty much always bet that when it's checked to me. In this case it's even more important since everyone is playing like wimps. The flop was checked around. I might bet a T high with no draws in this case. I'm not even thinking about it in this case. I've noticed in other posts that I tend to play draws much more aggresively than you do. That's probably normal. MajorKong may not believe this since he always seems to be ragging on me to play more aggresively, but I play more aggresively than most of the people I play against.

[Homer]

But you agree he should have capped preflop and betting the flop is better than folding.

I mentioned that he shouldn't have folded to a flop bet from BB. Later, I said he played every street correctly. Of course, he would have played the flop incorrectly had BB bet. So in a sense he was lucky to have played the flop correctly. I should have explained myself better.

I don't agree that he should have capped preflop. I wonder if I am the only one...

-- Homer

[rkiray]

Wow,

A miracle, for once Majorkong and I say the exact same thing.

[J.R.]

The BB is a good player and reraises me.

I might not cap here w/ AKo, although having two bad players in the pot as well makes this closer. If the BB is a good player in the sense that he is aggressive out of the BB with many hands in a 4 way pot against an MP open-raiser and two callers, capping is probably correct.

[rkiray]

Why not? You have one of the best starting hands and you have position on him. Once again, as with the John Shaft post I have noticed that I play more aggresively than you do J.R. So it just may be a difference in styles.

[J.R.]

I think it depends on what "good player" means, as tight pre-flop play and straight-forward post-flop play can make one a winning (and hence "good player"- although not great) in these games. There are many who could be labeled good that won't 3-bet from the big blind in a 4 way pot without AA or KK.

[thomastem]

I don't think trip 10s or 7s are out of the question on the turn and certainly 2 pair Qs and 10s. I know this is only 1 out, 10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif but it hasn't been mentioned thus far and I would have discounted 1 more out here.

An A or K on the turn unless except the K /images/graemlins/heart.gif feels like a second best hand to a straight, two pair, or still possibly a set with 10s or 7s. The A or K of /images/graemlins/diamond.gif gives a backdoor flush possibility on top of that. You are in trouble with anyone playing A-10, A-Q, A-J, Q-10, K-Q, K-J, K-10, 10-10,7-7, or even 10-7 suited. Forget As and Ks except the K /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I don't count the 6 As or Ks as an out. I have 3 jacks and a backdoor flush and I'm not sure the 10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif is an out. For that matter if I get the J /images/graemlins/heart.gif to complete my straight I am beaten by any two pocket hearts. Do my opponents have it?

I'm sorry too much from the flop perspective can go wrong for my liking I would fold on the flop. I don't believe I can make a profit consistantly in this scenario.

Please correct my logic if I'm wrong.

[Ed Miller]

I don't agree that he should have capped preflop. I wonder if I am the only one...

You aren't... when strong players 3-bet me from the blind, I don't like AKo nearly so much.

[CMangano]

Wow, lots of good discussions going on, I am glad I posted this now. I will try to respond to some of the comments.

First, regarding the BB as a good player. What I meant was he had good starting hand selection. His raise doesn't automatically mean AA or KK, but I felt that his raise in the BB could be a pair like JJ or QQ.

As for my flop almost fold, I think I sometimes I play to weakly on the flop. At the time I felt like the call on the flop was loose, but it seems like the majority of people disagree. This is one of my weak points for sure. I felt the BB betting out surely meant big pair, so that was my thinking for folding. However, with the pot size it seems as though that would be incorrect.

I guess the turn was ok and it could be argued for raising, betting out or just calling as all being good plays. Maybe I am misunderstanding odds, but if I have 10 outs then that leaves 36 bad cards and 10 good cards. Divide the 2 and you get 3.6, so in terms of odds it is 2.6:1, right?

On the river I wasn't really afraid of the straight flush. If anyone had raised I was planning on reraising.

RESULTS:

Blinds folded (don't remember if I posted that)
Button showed T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif for the turn flush.
I won.

Thanks for all the responses so far and the great discussions.

[slavic]

Why not cap AKo here? Especially if you will cap the large pairs and AKs of course my normal game has AKo being way better than everyone elses hand. Only capping the large pairs, or never capping just seems wrong.

[dirty_dan]

Ah I didn't put the BB on a possible AK to split our 3 non-heart Jack outs. With the full 3 outs then he'd be 2.8 to 1 against hitting and a turn checkraise would be +EV assuming that nobody will fold for the additional bet. Of course then we might be facing a reraise from the button.

That makes me want to bet out as a semi-bluff. After the blinds check and with the scary 3rd heart there should be a small chance of taking the pot right there. If the calling station button hangs in that could keep the blinds to the river, but you've still got your 10.5 outs. If the button decides he likes his hand and raises, he could knock out the BB and his AK, giving you back those extra 1.5 outs.

[SittingBull]

[dirty_dan]

You're subtracting an extra 1. You're odds against hitting are 36/10 = 3.6/1.

[JohnShaft]

Well I think the preflop cap is borderline. I've been doing it a lot more lately, with some success. Mainly because I've seen people 3-bet regularly in these type of games with hands that AK has in all kinds of trouble. Even if the 3 bet means big PP the only one your in real trouble with is AA (KK ain't a great spot, but it ain't that bad). So if they'll 3-bet with QQ, JJ, and even less, not to mention a weaker Ace, then I really think capping is a good move. And I'm doubly convinced if it's multiway with a couple of loose limpers in there...
It's of course opponent specific, but many of the opponents in 3/6 online aren't that discriminating about raising hands preflop. Plus they also play horribly enough that if you flop (or turn) top pair they'll call you down (maybe stick in an extra bet) with JJ etc. Hit the flop (maybe see a cheap turn) and fold, is my modus operandi 4 way with AK atm.

My disagreement Rick was really how sure you were about betting the turn. I'm pretty much that sure about NOT betting it...
I think we need a clearer reason than "aggressiveness is good" to bet the turn.
Here's my reasons not too.

1. The button is a "calling station" and has bet the flop. He very likely "has something", and if he's a CS he's likely calling you down no matter. You ain't gonna win by getting everyone to fold, you ain't gonna win with Ace high.
Half of the value of the semi-bluff is it has two ways to win. You can win by making your hand with a card to come. You can win if everyone folds. Sorry if anyone disagrees, but that ain't happening in this spot. They ain't all folding. Nor do I think you are likely at all to win the pot sans showdown with a river bluff. The calling station being behind you (saying he's got a hand) is the worst spot possible to try this.

2. There's one card to come, and the only cards you really like are hearts, a Jack's probably good. Ace and King are probably patchy. OK you've got a lot of outs, but you're still a fair dog to make a strong hand in one card.

3. If you bet the turn when the flush card hits, after check-calling the flop, you are more likely to get one or two of the blinds to fold. This is damaging your implied odds, and worse, reducing the money in the pot before the river if you do hit.

4. If the calling station, who is showing aggression, raises you, you're costing yourself an extra bet, and almost surely folding the two blinds. Getting evens on two bets, for a likely 3-1 shot at best (if even the Jack is good).

I really don't see any up on betting the turn in this spot.
And I see a whole lotta down...

[Dynasty]

Why not cap AKo here?

You don't cap simply because you have AK. You cap because you think you have the best hand (or at least one with excellent equity). When somebody 3-bets out of the blinds, it is often AA or KK. Many players won't 3-bet even with QQ and will rarely do it with JJ or AK.

If the player who only raises with AA puts in the first raise, are you going to re-raise with KK simply because it's KK? Or are you going to fold your dominated hand?

[bernie]

preflop...

if the BB is a good player meaning he has tight raising standards from this spot, im not capping. suited, id cap though...

flop..

this is a nice flop. one of youre immediate outs may be good. (A or K). if it gets checked to me here, im betting it. however, if the BB c/r, im not jamming this pot.

is the BB the type that would wait to the turn? if not, once he only calls the flop bet by a button that could have anything, id consider raising it. there is no way in hell im folding this to a single flop bet.

turn...

id bet out. but im not jamming here. you dont have enough players to jam with if someone has the flush already. which a raise may indicate. if no one raises, you 'may' still have youre str8 outs.

however, if it comes back to you for 2+ bets, it could get real interesting depending on the raising standards of the raisers in this spot.

b

[rkiray]

You are correct about the turn. I misread the post the first time I responded to you and thought the flop was checked through. And while I usually bet 4 flushes I actually wouldn't against a calling station. I would do it against players who I thought I could beat on the turn (at least some of the time).

[slavic]

Pitch KK like a bad apple of course.

And I have met that player before. Never raised with anything but KK or AA, he got some interesting AK wins but it didn't make up for only winning the blinds with AA or KK. Plus his hand selection was so tight if he entered a pot, I either played a monster or got out of his way. He seemed pretty bitter.

[Nottom]

I think you ended up playing it ok, but your thought process was a bit screwy at times.