Do I have enough to call?

Was this a loose turn call or standard.



PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (9.40 SB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (4.70 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds.

[Eeegah]

Well, what do you think?

[gezuz]

you're getting 1-5.7 on your call, and assuming your 5's, Aces, and tens are good, you have 10 outs, so it doesn't look too bad to me. Why didn't you bet the flop?

[moose47]

I'm done with the hand. We need about 7 outs to call. I don't think we are close to that here. Also I like the flop check as it's highly unlikely we have the best hand at that point.

[sean c]

That turn is a turbo muck.

[radek2166]

Nope 5-1 he can have it

[SmileyPSU]

I don't think you have enough clean outs to make the call (Aces and 5's tainted).

Can someone help a newbie out?
Why is this such a clear fold? Even if we assume none of the crosses are good we still have 4 clean Aces/tens and 3 clean 5s for the straight.

Sure CO could have 5/6 or a set or whatever but he could also be on a absolute bluff after seeing no action on flop or turn.

[rgb]

[ QUOTE ]
Can someone help a newbie out?
Why is this such a clear fold? Even if we assume none of the crosses are good we still have 4 clean Aces/tens and 3 clean 5s for the straight.

Sure CO could have 5/6 or a set or whatever but he could also be on a absolute bluff after seeing no action on flop or turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking the same.

Everyone has checked twice except the PFR, who announced to the world he had overcards with his flop check.

My guess is that CO is (semi)bluffing a fair percentage of the time here and this should be a factor when deciding what to do.

[SmileyPSU]

[ QUOTE ]
Can someone help a newbie out?
Why is this such a clear fold? Even if we assume none of the crosses are good we still have 4 clean Aces/tens and 3 clean 5s for the straight.

Sure CO could have 5/6 or a set or whatever but he could also be on a absolute bluff after seeing no action on flop or turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing is we can't call them "clean" because if an Ace comes you're behind anyone with a 5, and if a 5 hits you're behind anyone with a 6. You can't count them fully.

You also can't count fully count the 10's because even if you hit your 10, you could be behind an already made straight or two pair or something along those lines. No card that comes gives you the nuts.

In this case, I'd probably assign 1 out to the Ace, 1.5 outs to the 10, and 2 outs to the 5. I think you're drawing to somewhere between 4 and 5 outs.

I don't think it's a clear cut fold, because counting outs is not an exact science, but I wouldn't be putting anymore money in on this hand.

[Black Peter]

I'd bet the flop. Fold to a c/r.

In your case, with tainted outs, i'd fold the turn....

[Yerma]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd bet the flop. Fold to a c/r.

In your case, with tainted outs, i'd fold the turn....

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are folding to a flop c/r automatically, you'd better not bet the flop. That would be a horrible fold.

[Yerma]

You should usually bet the flop here. There is no guarantee that you are behind, and probably have 6 outs when you get called. You also might end up folding someone with a weak pair while getting pure overcard draws to call you. That would be a good result.

The way it was played I'd fold the turn.

[SoftcoreRevolt]

[ QUOTE ]
you're getting 1-5.7 on your call, and assuming your 5's, Aces, and tens are good, you have 10 outs, so it doesn't look too bad to me. Why didn't you bet the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

WHy in god's name would we give full value to all our outs?

Your Overcards are not worth 6 outs here, maybe 3. Your fives certaintly aren't worth 4 outs here, you are drawing to the ONE CARD BOTTOM END of the straight. This is barely even a draw.

[crovax4444]

[ QUOTE ]
You should usually bet the flop here. There is no guarantee that you are behind, and probably have 6 outs when you get called. You also might end up folding someone with a weak pair while getting pure overcard draws to call you. That would be a good result.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like a little more discussion on this. I feel like I've turned passive all of a sudden since I started playing those NL SNG's.

I personally would have checked the flop simply because it's overs with no backdoors. Any thoughts?

Crovax

The flop is a bit ragged and everyone checked so I think it may have missed them all. You could even be best here and with position and 6 reasonable outs in a rather large pot. There is a lot of potential for this flop to develop into something dangerous, so if you're going to continue I think you want to bet. It's also great if anyone folds, because everyone will have outs to beat you and you're only drawing to top pair. I think a bet pays off.

It seems that if you do check you would plan to fold to any bet on the turn.

If you check the flop then you should fold to the turn bet.

If you bet the flop, I'd try for a free card on the turn.

[bozlax]

The way you played the flop, the turn is an easy fold. Small pot, you've got no good part of the board, not enough outs, yada yada yada.

The flop is the problem (and interesting) part of this hand. Why'd you check? You were the pfr...of course everybody is going to fold to you on a raggedy board, last to act. Bet. If you're c/r'd, call and fold the turn UI. If you're not and anybody calls, reevaluate on the turn.

Nope, fold! U have only 6 possible outs but they´re only worth about 2.5 outs (at most). This is because of the risk of reversed domination and the flush and straight draws some of ur outs completes. Also u can well be drawing dead if someone holds two-pair or better. This gives drawing odds 18.4-to-1. The pot is also pretty small, laying only 5.7-to-1. Even if u had 6 genuine outs (6.7-to-1)a fold is correct. And the fact that u have two opponents yet to act, who might check-raise doesn´t help!

U could bet the flop trying to buy a free card. But I wouldn´t reccomend it. U raised pre-flop, thinking u had an edge. Now u totally missed the flop and against 3 players there is a huge risk u´re behind. U have no backdoor draws. And a K, Q or J on the turn ruins your hand totally.

Give it up!

[GTSamIAm]

As long as your opponent has not paired with the board and does not have an ace or ten in his hand, then you're fine. But can you take that for granted? And furthermore, if he does have an ace, you're splitting the wheel, so you just lost two outs. I think this a pretty standard fold.