Getting frustrated with the money I make

[Focused]

I seem to be a subsistance poker player. Every month I make my profit and it goes on rent, bills, car etc. I don't seem to be getting ahead. I'm not able to move up in money level and so increase my profits.
I was wondering are there other people like me and how they have managed. I can't/don't want to get credit. I play $10/$20 sng's and feel my game is upto moving up but don't want to bust my bankroll as it's my living money.
I was also wondering if money games would be more profitable. I am proud of making a living from poker, but at the moment it's a small one and it's irritating reading articles about other guys making a very (comforatble) living. Cheers.

[sofere]

Ugh...gotta be brutal making a living at the $10s and 20s

Try getting a "real job." This way poker is more of a supplemental income and you'll feel more comfortable trying to move up in limits. Then when you're at a limit you feel comfortable with and feel like you can make enough to live on...quit.

Who knows you may get lucky and find a real job that you enjoy as much or more than poker.

[caretaker1]

Play more games?

[citanul]

if you can't build your bankroll from scratch while "playing for a living" you either shouldn't be doing it because your real life is too expensive or aren't serious enough about it to do it.

c

[ilya]

I played $20s for a living for a long time and had the same problem as you. I would try to play enough every month to set money aside for moving up, but I would let real life get in the way and I would only end up making a little extra. My bankroll was growing, but too slowly. Then this fall I decided to sacrifice several months of my social life to XXXtreme bankroll-building, on the theory that once I was able to move up to the $50s, I would make enough money playing reasonable hours to let me have a life while still building my roll. After 2 months of hardcore playing, I reached my goal and moved up. Then disaster struck and I had to move down again, but if it hadn't been for my hard work during those 2 months, the disaster would have bankrupted me altogether. Now, I know that after just a couple more months I can be back where I was. I have done it once & know I can do it again.

So, my point is...if you're serious about this, make a plan & stick to it. Play a lot more than usual for a couple of months. After a while, what once seemed like an insanely challenging work schedule will come to seem quite feasible. If you're persistent & diligent, and you really have the skill to beat higher games, you will be on your way in just a few months.

Best of luck & happy holidays. See you on the leaderboard!

Ilya

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
Every month I make my profit and it goes on rent, bills, car etc. I don't seem to be getting ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds like my life story working a regular job. Be thankful that at least you can make your own hours and don't have to take orders from some jerk like me.

[pooh74]

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Every month I make my profit and it goes on rent, bills, car etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I play $10/$20 sng's

[/ QUOTE ]

I need to move

[Mr_J]

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Ugh...gotta be brutal making a living at the $10s and 20s

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if he's young.

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This way poker is more of a supplemental income

[/ QUOTE ]

Only to people who don't play full-time /images/graemlins/wink.gif

OP, work more, add more tables or spend less.

[tshort]

Ask your parents to pay your rent.

[greenroom1]

if you can play 5 tables you can make 10 bucks an hour.

[mockingbird]

Get a real job to cover expenses and save. Play fewer games or maybe one game at a time - concentrate on quality of play - concentrate - on improving your play and getting better.

Sounds like you're in a major rut.

[Focused]

Thanks for all your replies. I've taken them on board and feel I needed a kick up the ass. I'm refreshed and will be single minded in my climb to a more comfortable poker life. Happy New Year.

[bones]

[ QUOTE ]
I seem to be a subsistance poker player. Every month I make my profit and it goes on rent, bills, car etc. I don't seem to be getting ahead. I'm not able to move up in money level and so increase my profits.
I was wondering are there other people like me and how they have managed. I can't/don't want to get credit. I play $10/$20 sng's and feel my game is upto moving up but don't want to bust my bankroll as it's my living money.
I was also wondering if money games would be more profitable. I am proud of making a living from poker, but at the moment it's a small one and it's irritating reading articles about other guys making a very (comforatble) living. Cheers.

[/ QUOTE ]

The great thing about playing for a living is that you get out of it what you put into it. If you need more money, play more. If you want a higher ROI, study more. If you need a break, take a break. You don't have to ask your boss for any of this. Just requires some committment.

[Mr_J]

Not another one. I wish people would consider how much 10 tabling $22s can earn before they make posts like this.

[Mr_J]

50k per year working 23hrs a week, 42 weeks a year is really miserable isn't it. I'm not saying it's great, but it's far from miserable.

[ QUOTE ]
if you can play 5 tables you can make 10 bucks an hour.

[/ QUOTE ]

5 tables of $20+2's would be more like $30/hour for a good player.

[Mr_J]

That's not the point, you basically said $22s wouldn't provide much of an income. While 50k is worthless to you, I think it's pretty silly for you to suggest it is for everyone else.

[pooh74]

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50k per year working 23hrs a week, 42 weeks a year is really miserable isn't it. I'm not saying it's great, but it's far from miserable.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, he said he played the 10s and 20s...He didnt say how many tables so lets not assume. Lastly, with the expenses some of us have, and the places where we live, 50K before taxes is not close to enough. I dont think its unreasonable to be a bit surprised to hear that someone is making a living straddling the 10s and 20s...but I see your point too. Your numbers reflected more than I expected, to be honest.

[Mr_J]

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First of all, he said he played the 10s and 20s...He didnt say how many tables so lets not assume.

[/ QUOTE ]

No that was just an example. It's probable that OP doesn't 10 table /images/graemlins/wink.gif I just wanted to point out that it is possible to make a decent income at the $22s. It might not be a great income, but it's definately not as bad as the guy above made it sound. Remember alot of people on this site are college aged where $50 is a pretty good hourly rate.

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Your numbers reflected more than I expected, to be honest.

[/ QUOTE ]

A $55er working the same hours with a 12-13% ROI would make 100k.

I've also got to remember this is all tax free for me, so 100k to me is much better than 100k to an american. Hell, my 100k is the equiv to around 180k pretax here.

[pooh74]

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[ QUOTE ]
First of all, he said he played the 10s and 20s...He didnt say how many tables so lets not assume.

[/ QUOTE ]

No that was just an example. It's probable that OP doesn't 10 table /images/graemlins/wink.gif I just wanted to point out that it is possible to make a decent income at the $22s. It might not be a great income, but it's definately not as bad as the guy above made it sound. Remember alot of people on this site are college aged where $50 is a pretty good hourly rate.

[ QUOTE ]
Your numbers reflected more than I expected, to be honest.

[/ QUOTE ]

A $55er working the same hours with a 12-13% ROI would make 100k.

I've also got to remember this is all tax free for me, so 100k to me is much better than 100k to an american. Hell, my 100k is the equiv to around 180k pretax here.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, I agree with all of this. I also have to remember the same principles (not to project MY cost of living on the rest). Taxes are a big issue, especially where I live (NYC) where we have not only the fed taxes, but state and city as well (both of them some of the highest in the country).

But 10 tabling the 22s at a decent ROI should be a decent living for most. I just assumed that this was NOT the case for OP.

[11t]

Learn to play MTT's so you can donk your way to a win and auto jump levels.

That is how the pros do it baby.

You should maybe move up one level at least. If you're doing good enough to keep urself alive at the $11 and $22s, you should be okay doing $22s and $33s. Also 11t is right. You should learn how to play MTTs. $11 MTTs to begin with. It has anywhere between 500 to 1500 players (depending on the time) and first place payout goes from 1000-4000 (plus or minus a few thousand... this is off the top of my head). That's a real booster.

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
You should maybe move up one level at least. If you're doing good enough to keep urself alive at the $11 and $22s, you should be okay doing $22s and $33s. Also 11t is right. You should learn how to play MTTs. $11 MTTs to begin with. It has anywhere between 500 to 1500 players (depending on the time) and first place payout goes from 1000-4000 (plus or minus a few thousand... this is off the top of my head). That's a real booster.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure 11t was joking. MTTs have WAY too much variance for someone who is barely making a living. Especially for someone who depends on that money to pay bills every month.

[Crispy86]

Yes, a lot depends on where you live. The assumption in this thread is that the person lives in an expensive state/city, or even the US. Here in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, a rather beautiful city to live in (IMHO), U$50,000/year would have you living at a very decent standard.

Albert

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MTTs have WAY too much variance for someone who is barely making a living.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is true, but the occasional $11 MTT isn't going to hurt especially if he's busting out a thousand or more $11 or $22 SNGs a month. I'm not saying play them all the time...just a few times a week.

[Mr_J]

No, it's more to do with how old you are and what kind of financial responsiblities you have. Most people on this board are young and would live very well on 50k here (for their age), and I live in a city that's more expensive than any american city apart from NYC.

[Focused]

Hi, wanted to clear up that I live in the UK. I 6 table and don't use pokertracker or any other software. I'd prefer to grind out a living at online poker than work in the factory that I used to work in. But I have ambition, that's why I read and post on 2+2. Cheers.

NP.

Moving up on the poker food chain can be done but it's not easy for most. Often what you get out of poker is what you put into it.

[Slim Pickens]

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I guess we must live very different lives. I wouldnt get out of bed for $50k a year.

[/ QUOTE ]

The second post I read in a week has this s*** in it? Careful throwing stones like that in that glass house of yours.

To the OP: The great thing about a "real" job is absolutely zero variance. You get your check no matter what as long as you still have the job. There are plenty of part-time jobs that should cover your most basic expenses and leave you with enough time to play. I had a writer living in my basement for a while who worked in a chocolate shop part-time to pay the rent and then wrote the rest of the time. If you did the same thing with poker, you'd find yourself faced with the choice of going out tonight or playing poker for bankroll money, not going out tonight or playing poker for rent money. Once you see how much more you can make at the higher levels, it will seem totally worth it to sacrifice a few recreational nights for future implied fun, so your motivation will go up. More fun all around. Point being, get a crappy job to cover rent while you build a bankroll for the higher levels.

[ QUOTE ]
Get a crappy job to cover rent while you build a bankroll for the higher levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

Living the dream /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Seriously though, get a job where you can play at work. Best of both worlds.

[Phill S]

Considering you arent paying tax, you should be making a fairly good clip that you can move up. If not then you have essentially 3 options:

1, play more hours/tables/both
2, cut down on overheads
3, borrow to expand (including backing)

This is all basic business theory, you either cut overheads, or grow, be it organically or inorganically. Look at your play from the point of view of being a small company. The choices you make are essentially the same.

And just like businesses, most pro poker players go bust in their first year of opperation.

[Slim Pickens]

I'm pretty sure he's not joking. The utility on a $3k MTT score is worth the risk. Think of utility this way. Say the lottery pays $1000 on a $1 ticket. The probability of winning is 1/2000. Pretty bad bet normally, but let's say some guy's coming to break your legs unless you pay him $1000. You have no other way of getting $1000 other than playing the lottery. Obviously, you want to play because winning lets you not get your legs broken, whereas losing doesn't really change anything and you could care less about the dollar you lost. For the OP, a win means a jump in levels (and a quantifiable increase in money earned) and a loss won't break his bankroll, so even if he's a breakeven MTT player, playing them is a good idea.

[ QUOTE ]


Seriously though, get a job where you can play at work. Best of both worlds.

[/ QUOTE ]

That'll do well until your on the bubble at 4 tables and the boss tells you he needs you in the file room to help him find a file. /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[kevstreet]

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I guess we must live very different lives. I wouldnt get out of bed for $50k a year.

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... but you would, however, get out of bed to make insulting comments like this? And to think this is only 5 days after you registered, can't wait for the support, advice and words of wisdom forthcoming.

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future implied fun

[/ QUOTE ]
My nomination for awesome new term of the year.


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get a job where you can play at work

[/ QUOTE ]
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I had a job where I a) worked at home full time b) got 27 days of "TOP" time a year c) had badass bennies d) made right at 6-figures and e) did almost nothing but watch Star Trek all day. They were perfectly happy with me as long as I kept the apps I had helped create running. I quit that job, to drive 45 min. each way and sit in an office all day, because I was bored and my career was going nowhere. I wound up with a much much more boring job for slightly more $$, that is doing even less for my career. I want to hang myself every morning when I get up to drive to work.

This was in June, about 2 months before I discovered poker. I probably could have played poker and gotten paid for it for 1-2 years, and taken all the time off I wanted to go to tournaments, etc.

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I want to hang myself every morning when I get up to drive to work.



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Well that cant be a good sign.

[Crispy86]

[ QUOTE ]
No, it's more to do with how old you are and what kind of financial responsiblities you have. Most people on this board are young and would live very well on 50k here (for their age), and I live in a city that's more expensive than any american city apart from NYC.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't agree. It's not that I doubt the cost of living where you are located, but if you can get the very same income independently of where you live, then it seems to make sense to choose a less expensive place, no?

Take a look briefly at this article (http://money.cnn.com/2005/12/14/real_estate/buying_selling/least_affordable_rental_markets/index.htm). It provides a few figures on the US rental market. Let's suppose I am earning an average $20 an hour no matter where I live. It would seem kind of absurd, provided I had a choice, to select one of the listed 'most expensive' rental markets.

So yes, if you live in L.A. and living there is the most important thing to you, and 50K isn't cutting it, you'll have to find an alternative income. If on the other hand, your current source of income is more important (you like your job better) and L.A. is not the biggest deal, find a more feasible place to live.

Albert

[GrekeHaus]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess we must live very different lives. I wouldnt get out of bed for $50k a year.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you considered moving to Slovakia? It's a very beautiful country and you can get a 4-star meal there for ~$3US.

If you can't live comfortably on $50K there, then you're spending way too much money on pornography.

[ QUOTE ]
If on the other hand, your current source of income is more important (you like your job better) and L.A. is not the biggest deal, find a more feasible place to live.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do they have internet in Bhutan?

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure he's not joking. The utility on a $3k MTT score is worth the risk. Think of utility this way. Say the lottery pays $1000 on a $1 ticket. The probability of winning is 1/2000. Pretty bad bet normally, but let's say some guy's coming to break your legs unless you pay him $1000. You have no other way of getting $1000 other than playing the lottery. Obviously, you want to play because winning lets you not get your legs broken, whereas losing doesn't really change anything and you could care less about the dollar you lost. For the OP, a win means a jump in levels (and a quantifiable increase in money earned) and a loss won't break his bankroll, so even if he's a breakeven MTT player, playing them is a good idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Easy for you to say. I haven't had a big cash in a mtt in almost two months. In fact, I am down 1500 in mtts in the last two months. If I had never played a mtt, I would be at the 55s instead of the 22s currnently.

[Mr_J]

LA is cheaper than where I live. 50k isn't much, but for someone young it's ok. Income is only half of it, because this person is only working 23hrs a week, 42 weeks a year, and only hitting 16% ROI in my example. You could easily bump up those hours and the ROI could be higher.

A $22er who 10tables and hits 20%, working 30hrs a week, 44 weeks a year will make 80kUS.

[Slim Pickens]

If I'd never entered an MTT in my life, I'd be playing the 55's. As it stands, I play the 55's. If you're paying enough entry fees to MTT's to keep you from moving up levels in STT's, you have to consider yourself a serious MTT player and put in the required study and practice to beat them. My point is directed at the casual MTT players.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
If I'd never entered an MTT in my life, I'd be playing the 55's. As it stands, I play the 55's. If you're paying enough entry fees to MTT's to keep you from moving up levels in STT's, you have to consider yourself a serious MTT player and put in the required study and practice to beat them. My point is directed at the casual MTT players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, kinda. I was played a lot of mtts this month for two reasons. 1st, they are my favorite form of poker. 2nd, I was chasing a big score. That said, I just wanted to warn people who had read your post about the very high amount of variance that can be experienced in mtts.

[Slim Pickens]

Yeah, MTT's are definitely higher variance undertakings than STT's. This is kind of why I think taking a few shots at them is a good idea for a lower-level STT player looking to move up. Higher variance works both ways, and playing a few MTT's is a way of creating another parallel path to the higher STT levels. My opinion is probably biased by my 5000% ROI in the Party 40k's though.

[Mr_J]

All I'm saying is $50-$60 an hour is decent pay considering the typical age of most people on this board.

It all goes back to the first guy I replied to saying that $20s pay you peanuts, and I just wanted to ask him if >50k working just 23hrs/week, 42 weeks a year was peanuts. It isn't big money, but it's an amount a young person can live off comfortably in most areas.

Back to $22s and peanuts. If they 35hrs a week, 44 weeks a year they'll make over 90k.

I'm not saying 50k is great, but I'm sick of people saying that $22s pay peanuts. It's all relative. While he wouldn't get out of bed for 50k, alot of people on this board would be happy with that and the freetime it gives them.

[johnnybeef]

so long as it is only a few, i dont disagree with you.

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying 50k is great, but I'm sick of people saying that $22s pay peanuts. It's all relative. While he wouldn't get out of bed for 50k, alot of people on this board would be happy with that and the freetime it gives them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I live in an area of fairly high cost-of-living, work 40+ hours and commute from NH to just north of Boston for the priviledge of making just over 50K annual plus bennies.

This is not at all out-of-the-ordinary for the area and I own a nice house, in-ground pool, etc. I don't see why people are sneezing at 50K either.

And yes, I do get out sometimes...

[microbet]

Where do you live? SF? LA's a damn big area, it's all fairly expensive, but the nicer parts are really expensive. Not NYC expensive, but it's up there with any other city except maybe Honolulu (but I think prices have gone down a lot there).

Anyway, I'm mostly just responding to see if you are in Cali like me.

Nmind, I see the taxes thing. London? I just looked at a couple houses on a real estate site and prices seem pretty similar to LA. (yes, I converted currency)

[Mr_J]

[ QUOTE ]
London?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not that expensive /images/graemlins/wink.gif Sydney.